Pope: Other Christians not true churches

AP ^ | July 11, 2007 | NICOLE WINFIELD

[f150sound]

LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.

In the latest document — formulated as five questions and answers — the Vatican seeks to set the record straight on Vatican II's ecumenical intent, saying some contemporary theological interpretation had been "erroneous or ambiguous" and had prompted confusion and doubt.

It restates key sections of a 2000 document the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, "Dominus Iesus," which set off a firestorm of criticism among Protestant and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the "means of salvation."

"Christ 'established here on earth' only one church," the document said. The other communities "cannot be called 'churches' in the proper sense" because they do not have apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ's original apostles.

[Running On Empty]

Thanks, dangus.

[DungeonMaster]

So all I have to do to be a “Christian” is join the RCC? And by doing that I will have earned my salvation?

[Marysecretary]

Oh no they aren’t. Only those who have asked the Lord Jesus Christ into their lives to be their Lord and Saviour are Christians. Baptism is important but it doesn’t save anyone. We’re to believe and be baptized. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is our salvation.

[Revolting cat!]

I don’t know of anyone who worships tv evangelists.

"How could he have gotten elected?! I don't know anyone who voted for Reagan!"

[dangus]

Proof-texting is the practice of citing scripture out of context to appear to prove something. It is not actually very useful, since context matters; in fact, the Devil himself proof-texts to assert false doctrine, and is proven wrong by Jesus.

>> Rom 10:13 (KJV): For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. <<

Here, the word translated as “name” doesn’t mean what your out-of-context quote makes it appear to mean. The “name” of the Lord is intentionally unpronounceable (YHWH), so it can’t be “called out.” “Name” could be translated “rule.” What the scripture refers to is the rule or dominion of the lord. And that is found within the Catholic Church. Demons cry out to Jesus and to God, but Christians must appeal to the merciful rule of the Body of Christ.

>> John 10:28-30 (KJV): And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one. <<

And, yet, Judas becomes known as “the son of perdition.” Was he not one of the 12? Judas is lost because he does not partake in the body and blood of the Lord, which is the covenant.

>> John 3:15 (KJV): That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life <<

Jesus also says, “If you believe in me, than you will do the Father’s will.” And Jesus commands that we be one, that we submit ourselves to our bishop, and that Peter shepherd his flock.

>> Eph 1:6-7 (KJV): To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; <<

This is precisely Pope Benedict’s point: Protestant churches are defective because they deny the presence of Christ in his blood, and hold that the reception of such blood is not necessary for the forgiveness of sins.

>> 1 John 5:11-13 (KJV): And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. <<

And what is it that John writes so that we may have eternal life?

“Unless you eat of my [Jesus’] flesh, and drink of my
[Jesus’] blood, you shall not have life within you.” But Protestants deny the presence of Jesus’ flesh and blood.

“If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” But Protestants refuse fellowship within the Catholic Church, and reject the communion under the body and blood of Jesus.

“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.” But Protestants reject his commandments to eat his body and drink his blood

“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” But Protestants lack apostolic annointing.

[Marysecretary]

I voted for him. Anyone else????

[Marysecretary]

gotcha.

[dangus]

>> God has never turned over the spiritual leadership of His Church to any human control. <<

Human control? Not exactly. The humans “in control” of the Catholic Church operate under the auspices of the Holy Spirit, which does not mean that they cannot do, of their own free will, horribly evil things. But it does mean that if they are chosen to be successors to St. Peter, they can be protected from proclaiming false doctrine, and that they authority to shepherd fellow Christians and to establish temporal law for the function of the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth:

“Peter, shepherd my sheep.”

“Cephas, you are Cephas, and apon this Cephas, I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Whatever you declare bound on Earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever you declare loosed on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven.”

[redgolum]

Isn’t this the same thing that JPII stated a few years ago?

The RCC has a very specific definition of “Church”, and basically if you aren’t in communion with the Pope, you are not in one. Now, there are some rather nuanced statements about the Eastern Orthodox, but they are not quite internally consistent.

The interesting thing is that, also according to Catholic doctrine, if you are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, you are already in the Catholic church in an “impaired” way or form.

Nothing new here.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

****Hey, I was told by snake-handlers who’d moved up from Tennessee and were attending my grammar school that I was going to hell if I didn’t take up serpents.
Those guys actually scared.****

I know of quite a few groups that claim all are “lost” except their little exclusive group. Dot the “i”, cross the “t” our way OR ELSE!

[redgolum]

Indeed they won’t.

What is interesting to me (as a Lutheran), is that BXVI is much more conservative than JPII was. Which is good and bad for any possible reunions.

[redgolum]

>> Does that mean that the indulgences I just purchased from the Methodist Church are no good? << Nope. Carbon credits are absolutely worthless.

Now that is a great line!

[dangus]

There is quite a substantial difference between saying that your church does not have the “means of salvation,” and saying that you are going to Hell. If you were a Catholic, and you were imminently going to die, and you knew you had validly received the Holy Eucharist, and had not gravely sinned since your last sincere confession, you could know you were going to Heaven. (Unfortunately, this is not the case for so many Catholics.) This is what is meant by “means of salvation.”

Protestants have no such assurance. You may have great confidence you are saved, and you may be right, despite the fact that you have placed your confidence through false doctrine.

True, there are evil people in the Catholic church, but they know of what evil things they have done, and they know of their lack of sincerity in confession, if they confessed their sins at all. Such people may also delude themselves into thinking they are saved, but the Catholic doctrine plainly teaches they are not.

[rhema]

Nothing for nothing but did the Pope think this when Martin Luther was nailing the 95 thesis to the church doors as the Catholic church terrorized and ripped off their congregation? While I practice Catholic (Italian-Irish wife would have it no other way), I will leave it up to my Lord Jesus Christ to judge me and whether I am worthy of salvation.

Luther got it right, Biblically speaking, and any Catholic or Protestant who has followed the Biblical path [articulated by Luther below] to salvation is indeed saved.

[Excerpted from Luther's Sunday after Christmas and New Year's Day sermons in Sermons of Martin Luther, edited by John Nicholas Lenker]

He who does not believe that Christ is true God is lost; witness John 8:24: "Except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." And (Jn 1, 4): "In him was life, and the life was the light of men." And again (Jn 14,6): "I am the way, and the truth, and the life." . . .

Now, if we were not to cleave by faith unto Christ as true God, God would be robbed of the honor due him, and we of life and salvation. It is our duty to believe in God only, who is the Truth; without him we cannot live or be saved. . .

God will not make a special way for you. He will not, because of your service annul his covenant. You must abandon your own efforts and cleave to the seed he mentions, to that flesh and blood; otherwise you will be lost with all ths spiritual skill and wisdom you may have gained from God. Christ says (Jn 14,6), "No one cometh unto the Father, but by me."

It is supremely essential, therefore, to possess him who has accomplished the purchase for us. Nor is it possible to obtain grace otherwise than through him. . . .

. . .we must all come to Christ, who is made Lord over all things, and with whom is the throne of grace. He has obtained salvation for us. Consequently it is in vain to seek it elsewhere.

[MarDav]

“No, its only your interpretation of that bit of scripture that gets ignored.”

And, sadly, adhered to by many.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

****“Whew! What a relief! I thought we’d have to hire an interpreter.” It’s goofy.****

I bet some thought the Charismatics had invaded the church.;-)

[Mrs. Don-o]

Um... I’m not quite understanding the context here. Are you marrying a Catholic? Switching from one church/denomination to another? Or why do you need to document your baptism?

Ordinarily, if I’m not mistaken, any church of any sort that baptizes people, keeps a permanent record. You can phone or email them or write to them asking for a photocopy.

Hope this is helpful. (Please excuse me if I’m misconstruing your situation.)

[GiovannaNicoletta]

A Christian is a person who has accepted Christ's death on the Cross as payment for his sins and who has confessed his sins to the Heavenly Father, asked for forgiveness, trusted Christ as his savior and lord and who, in the eyes of God, is no longer under the judgement and wrath of God but has been adopted into God's family and has eternal life.

Denominations are man-made.

[wardaddy]

And Protestant leaders don’t consider Catholics Christian.

I have been Southern Baptist for 50 years and never heard that personally...not even once.

[FormerLib]

That’s the point I raised on some previous threads about reunification, it will come down to how “primacy” is defined and, since the Orthodox will never define it to grant absolute authority to Peter’s successors, that’s where it will stop.

What we can do, of course, is join on those things were we do agree, such as standing against abortion, euthanasia, cloning and doing those charitable works that our faith requires of us.