Vatican says other Christian churches "wounded" (Non-Catholics not fullly Christian)

Reuters ^ | 7-20-07 | Phil Stewart

[Bladerunnuh]

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Vatican said on Tuesday Christian denominations outside Roman Catholicism were not full churches of Jesus Christ.

Protestant leaders said this was offensive and would hurt inter-religious dialogue.

A 16-page document by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which Pope Benedict once headed, described Christian Orthodox churches as true churches, but suffering from a "wound" since they do not recognize the primacy of Pope.

But the document said the "wound is still more profound" in Protestant denominations.

"Despite the fact that this teaching has created no little distress ... it is nevertheless difficult to see how the title of 'Church' could possibly be attributed to them," it said.

The Vatican text, which restates the controversial document

[CarrotAndStick]

I’m not getting in there, lol! ... and before someone complains, I am sort-of agnostic. I just love getting in the middle of arguments. You have to excuse my bellicosity!

;^)

[Suzy Quzy]

WOW...you think you are Christ? Christ GAVE the BLESSED Eucharist....what you are doing is play acting.

[rightwingextremist1776]

Hey, I’m all for to each his own. I just don’t like someone telling me what is isn’t.....especially when it’s as plain as day.

[EarthBound]

WOW...you think you are Christ? Christ GAVE the BLESSED Eucharist....what you are doing is play acting.

Careful there calling me a blasphemur there Suzy. No where in my previous statement did I assert anything of the sort. But I can bless the bread and wine because I am a saint, prophet and king through Jesus. Make sense now?

[CarrotAndStick]

Agreed.

[Suzy Quzy]

No....you ARE searching though.....you are NOT a saint yet...you are a SINNER, like all of us. TYou were the one who said you are doing it just like Jesus. YOU said it...I didn’t.

[Enosh]

"what you are doing is play acting."

Luke 22:19

... "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

Isn't that exactly what EarthBound did?

[EarthBound]

Luke 22:19 ... "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me." Isn't that exactly what EarthBound did?

That was my take on it. =)

[Enosh]

"Take a piece of bread, and a cup of wine. Pray over it, and eat / drink."

You fulfilled Christ's request to the letter.

Watch, now Suzy is going to hit us with priestly requirements for "transubstantiation," neither of which is in Scripture.

[GoLightly]

I was at a Lutheran funeral a while ago and during their creed I kept having to resist the urger to ask the pastor where that came from.

Why didn't you ask him? You should have.

[marsh_of_mists]

Well, according to Catholic doctrine there are three levels of honor we may give to the holy ones in Heaven.

1) Dulia: which we give the saints.
2) Hyperdulia: which we give the Blessed Virgin.
3) Latria: this is worship given to God alone.

That's very important. The Church specifically distinguishes between these things. St. Augustine himself defined the difference between dulia, given to men, and latria given to God alone. As for the kissing and rubbing of statues and relics and so forth, this is meant to be a pious devotion paying honor to the actual beings in Heaven that the relics/statues/medals represent. We don't pray to a statue of Mary; however, we may pray to Mary before her statue. But remember when we say "pray to Mary" this is not a mode of worship, but a mode of communicating with someone we believe to be in Heaven. How else can you communicate with someone in Heaven if not through prayer?

[CarrotAndStick]

There’s a big difference between praying before a statue of Mary(or Jesus, or Buddha or Krishna or...) and thronging to kiss a vial of dried blood/ preserved bodies, pieces of wood, nails, etc.

I can’t understand how you claim one thing as idolatrous, and the other as not, yet doing both, claim you do neither!

The practises others and I mentioned, fits the definition of idolatry to the T.

[netmilsmom]

Has anyone looked at the exact quote from the Vatican or are we all just taking Reuters and AP’s word for it?

If this was a quote from GWB we’d all be screaming for the actual reference.

[marsh_of_mists]

I can’t understand how you claim one thing as idolatrous, and the other as not, yet doing both, claim you do neither!

It's a matter of what's in the heart. If a Catholic actually believes that they are worshipping Mary or a statue of Mary, they are indeed committing idolatry, and are also in error according to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. As for "thronging" to kiss a vial of dried blood, if you believed it was the blood of Christ Himself, wouldn't you at least be intrigued by it? Kissing it, again, is a way of showing reverence to the man the relic come from. It is also a way of getting as physically near as possible to Christ as we can on Earth.

[GoLightly]

I think it doubtful for Rome to ever get fully into bed with Islam & much of the West seems to be losing the will to defend itself. Without swords to defend her, the visible Church in Rome will be toppled before the end of days. During the height of Byzantium’s power, no one would ever imagine that She could be brought as down as low as She has. If Rome suffers the same fate, imagine how it would rattle the whole Christian world.

I think Muslims are watching for Mohammad to come back with the real Messiah. Their teachings include the Mosque in charge of the state. Apply their beliefs to the end times prophecies.

[netmilsmom]

>>It’s a matter of what’s in the heart.<<

This is the missing puzzle piece. (wow you put that well!)
Idolotry is what other think about what we are doing, not what we believe we are doing. God knows the truth and I don’t care at all what any one else does.

[GoLightly]

They don’t worship goddesses & saints, least not most of them. Still, a lot of the practice revolving around venerating saints weakens them & can lead the weakest among them astray.

[pgyanke]

1 Cor 11:20 When you come therefore together into one place, it is not now to eat the Lord's supper. 21 For every one taketh before his own supper to eat. And one indeed is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What, have you no houses to eat and to drink in? Or despise ye the church of God and put them to shame that have not? What shall I say to you? Do I praise you? In this I praise you not.

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread, 24 And giving thanks, broke and said: Take ye and eat: This is my body, which shall be delivered for you. This do for the commemoration of me. 25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood. This do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. 26 For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. 27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.
The Douay-Rheims Bible

Two things to note:

1) We come together as a Church to share in the Lord's Supper.

2) God is not so capricious as to have us eat and drink a mere ritual offering to our own damnation.

John 6:48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert: and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven: that if any man eat of it, he may not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world. 52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 54 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead. He that eateth this bread shall live for ever. 59 These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard; and who can hear it? 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you? 62 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that did not believe and who he was that would betray him. 65 And he said: Therefore did I say to you that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. 66 After this, many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him.
The Douay-Rheims Bible

This is hard indeed and many yet refuse to listen to Him.

[EarthBound]

You fulfilled Christ's request to the letter. Watch, now Suzy is going to hit us with priestly requirements for "transubstantiation," neither of which is in Scripture.

Were you going to answer us, Suzy?

[pgyanke]

1 Cor 11:20 When you come therefore together into one place, it is not now to eat the Lord's supper. 21 For every one taketh before his own supper to eat. And one indeed is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What, have you no houses to eat and to drink in? Or despise ye the church of God and put them to shame that have not? What shall I say to you? Do I praise you? In this I praise you not.

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread, 24 And giving thanks, broke and said: Take ye and eat: This is my body, which shall be delivered for you. This do for the commemoration of me. 25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood. This do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. 26 For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. 27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.
The Douay-Rheims Bible

Two things to note:

1) We come together as a Church to share in the Lord's Supper.

2) God is not so capricious as to have us eat and drink a mere ritual offering to our own damnation.

John 6:48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert: and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven: that if any man eat of it, he may not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world. 52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 54 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead. He that eateth this bread shall live for ever. 59 These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard; and who can hear it? 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you? 62 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that did not believe and who he was that would betray him. 65 And he said: Therefore did I say to you that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. 66 After this, many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him.
The Douay-Rheims Bible

This is hard indeed and many yet refuse to listen to Him.