Posted on 07/10/2007 3:14:17 AM PDT by monkapotamus
Ping
Correct title: Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church
You beat me to it!
The biggest thing I can say after having carefully read this document is that it goes to show how far away the “Spirit of VCII” is from the actual teachings of VCII.
But I do wish it was written in a more emphatic tone than the scholarly tone with which it was presented.
So now can we stop the silly handholding, usurping the “hands extended” orans position from the priest, the constant drone of “Light rock” music from the “Music minister” and football toss at “lift up your hearts”?
I don’t see any of that in there.
And BTW, kneel from the part where the priest says...”This is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world....” until the tabernacle is closed. It’s Jesus for pity sake. He’s right there. If his Earthly body appeared on the Altar, most of us would be on our faces, so get on your knees!!!!
/rant off/
Great post!
bumpus ad summum
Just when I was starting to like this pope, he goes and says something like this.
After 2000 years, his disciples are STILL quibbling about who is first among them!!! The Master will not be pleased.
“After 2000 years, his disciples are STILL quibbling about who is first among them!!!”
Sorry to be contradictory, but the Holy Father is doing no such thing.
Christ’s teaching of “removing the plank from your own eye, before helping your brother with the speck in his” seems very fitting.
I think you can still like the Pope. There are a lot of Catholic doctrines on which Protestism is built. Think about it, Luther was only a disillusioned and misled Catholic!
If you had a chance to talk with him today, I wonder if he would tell you that he was mistaken on many of his points.
“Christ’s teaching of “removing the plank from your own eye, before helping your brother with the speck in his” seems very fitting”
In no way.
It would do us all a lot of good to use just as much suspicion with MSM reports regarding religion as we do regarding MSM reports on any other subject.
The media misquote came from this sentence in the original document (response to Question #3):
"It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church" (emphasis mine)
Defect (in the original Latin, defectus) means: a lack of something necessary for completeness, adequacy, or perfection
Before spinning out of control on this, please consider the following: Of course, the Catholic Church will consider that all non-Catholic communities will have a lack of something necessary for completeness, adequacy, or perfection. I would imagine that the Orthodox Presbyterian Church would consider that Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, and Baptists would have a lack of something necessary for completeness, adequacy, or perfection, as well. And so on.
The other point of controversy spun out of control in the MSM was this (response to Question 4):
According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery19 cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called "Churches" in the proper sense20.
That should be fairly self-explanatory. You may not like the response, but the rationale for that response is contained above.
If you're going to get ticked off at that, though, you should be ticked off about 1,900 years worth. The origin of this teaching comes from St. Ignatius of Antioch (died circa 110 AD). In his letter to the Ephesians, he said:
Wherefore it is fitting that you should run together in accordance with the will of your bishop, which thing also you do. For your justly renowned presbytery, worthy of God, is fitted as exactly to the bishop as the strings are to the harp. Therefore in your concord and harmonious love, Jesus Christ is sung. And man by man, become a choir, that being harmonious in love, and taking up the song of God in unison, you may with one voice sing to the Father through Jesus Christ, so that He may both hear you, and perceive by your works that you are indeed the members of His Son. It is profitable, therefore, that you should live in an unblameable unity, that thus you may always enjoy communion with God.
And in his letter to the Smyrnaeans, he wrote:
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.
Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness [of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop. He who honours the bishop has been honoured by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does [in reality] serve the devil. Let all things, then, abound to you through grace, for you are worthy. You have refreshed me in all things, and Jesus Christ [shall refresh] you. You have loved me when absent as well as when present. May God recompense you, for whose sake, while you endure all things, you shall attain unto Him.
I recognize that this will not be pleasing to some, but it is what it is.
Thanks for the ping, and the thread.
"Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior." -- Encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore of Pope Pius IX, On Promotion of False Doctrines, 1863.
Wrong then. Still wrong now.
Sigh.
INDEED.
You are more than welcome. I know deep down inside there was a thank you for taking the effort to locate the actual document, for finding the original place in FR where it was posted several years ago (which I, Dr. E., hadn't had the opportunity to comment on previously), and for pinging me to that article). I know it's there because so many people have told me you're such a wonderful Christian lady, imbued with Christian Charity through every fiber of your being (no sarcasm, I've had a lot of people tell me this).
Now, onto the topic of your post.
You stated, in such an inestimably charitable fashion (as always):
The double-spoken pronouncements and errors of Rome are of no personal concern to me. But we are commanded to preach the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, and sometimes that means pointing out the impostors...
I agree fully with your desire to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And sometimes that requires one to point out the quotes taken out of context. You accurately quoted a small extract of Quanto Conficiamur Moerore when you posted the sentence, Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior."
But for some strange reason (perhaps it was an unintentional oversight on your part), you forgot to mention the words quoted just a little bit above that one: There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.
Perhaps it would be best to look at the entire context:
7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.
8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior."[4] The words of Christ are clear enough: "If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;"[5] "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;"[6] "He who does not believe will be condemned;"[7] "He who does not believe is already condemned;"[8] "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."[9] The Apostle Paul says that such persons are "perverted and self-condemned;"[10] the Prince of the Apostles calls them "false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction."[11]
9. God forbid that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same bonds of faith and love. On the contrary, let them be eager always to attend to their needs with all the kind services of Christian charity, whether they are poor or sick or suffering any other kind of visitation. First of all, let them rescue them from the darkness of the errors into which they have unhappily fallen and strive to guide them back to Catholic truth and to their most loving Mother who is ever holding out her maternal arms to receive them lovingly back into her fold. Thus, firmly founded in faith, hope, and charity and fruitful in every good work, they will gain eternal salvation.
# 4. Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon in its letter to Pope Leo.
# 5. Mt 15.17.
# 6. Lk 10.16.
# 7. Mk 16.16.
# 8. Jn 3.18.
# 9. Lk 11.23.
# 10. Ti 3.11.
# 11. 2 Pt 2.1.
Perhaps, on the other hand, it would be simpler to use the simple statement made by that venerable organization, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church: Of course a Roman Catholic Orthodox Presbyterian can be saved in spite of his church. Says the same thing, doesn't it?
May God's blessings be upon you richly this day.
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