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1 posted on 07/10/2007 3:14:21 AM PDT by monkapotamus
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To: NYer; narses; livius; baa39; Frank Sheed; Salvation; SevenofNine; Pyro7480; Dajjal

Ping


2 posted on 07/10/2007 3:16:33 AM PDT by monkapotamus
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To: monkapotamus

You beat me to it!


4 posted on 07/10/2007 3:38:13 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: monkapotamus

The biggest thing I can say after having carefully read this document is that it goes to show how far away the “Spirit of VCII” is from the actual teachings of VCII.

But I do wish it was written in a more emphatic tone than the scholarly tone with which it was presented.


5 posted on 07/10/2007 3:52:46 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: monkapotamus

So now can we stop the silly handholding, usurping the “hands extended” orans position from the priest, the constant drone of “Light rock” music from the “Music minister” and football toss at “lift up your hearts”?

I don’t see any of that in there.

And BTW, kneel from the part where the priest says...”This is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world....” until the tabernacle is closed. It’s Jesus for pity sake. He’s right there. If his Earthly body appeared on the Altar, most of us would be on our faces, so get on your knees!!!!

/rant off/


6 posted on 07/10/2007 4:22:46 AM PDT by netmilsmom (To attack one section of Christianity in this day and age, is to waste time.)
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To: monkapotamus; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...

Great post!


7 posted on 07/10/2007 5:22:45 AM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: monkapotamus
Thanks for this post. Simply stated concise answers. Viva il Papa.
8 posted on 07/10/2007 6:36:47 AM PDT by Nihil Obstat (Kyrie Eleison)
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To: monkapotamus

bumpus ad summum


9 posted on 07/10/2007 8:48:11 AM PDT by Dajjal
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To: monkapotamus

Just when I was starting to like this pope, he goes and says something like this.

After 2000 years, his disciples are STILL quibbling about who is first among them!!! The Master will not be pleased.


10 posted on 07/10/2007 3:50:33 PM PDT by ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY ( Terrorism is a symptom, ISLAM IS THE DISEASE!)
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To: monkapotamus; Dr. Eckleburg; narses; ArrogantBustard; Petronski; Judith Anne; Quix
This is the document, published by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, that was repeatedly misquoted by the media.

It would do us all a lot of good to use just as much suspicion with MSM reports regarding religion as we do regarding MSM reports on any other subject.

The media misquote came from this sentence in the original document (response to Question #3):

"It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church" (emphasis mine)

Defect (in the original Latin, defectus) means: a lack of something necessary for completeness, adequacy, or perfection

Before spinning out of control on this, please consider the following: Of course, the Catholic Church will consider that all non-Catholic communities will have a lack of something necessary for completeness, adequacy, or perfection. I would imagine that the Orthodox Presbyterian Church would consider that Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, and Baptists would have a lack of something necessary for completeness, adequacy, or perfection, as well. And so on.

 

The other point of controversy spun out of control in the MSM was this (response to Question 4):

According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery19 cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called "Churches" in the proper sense20.

That should be fairly self-explanatory. You may not like the response, but the rationale for that response is contained above.

If you're going to get ticked off at that, though, you should be ticked off about 1,900 years worth. The origin of this teaching comes from St. Ignatius of Antioch (died circa 110 AD). In his letter to the Ephesians, he said:

Wherefore it is fitting that you should run together in accordance with the will of your bishop, which thing also you do. For your justly renowned presbytery, worthy of God, is fitted as exactly to the bishop as the strings are to the harp. Therefore in your concord and harmonious love, Jesus Christ is sung. And man by man, become a choir, that being harmonious in love, and taking up the song of God in unison, you may with one voice sing to the Father through Jesus Christ, so that He may both hear you, and perceive by your works that you are indeed the members of His Son. It is profitable, therefore, that you should live in an unblameable unity, that thus you may always enjoy communion with God.

And in his letter to the Smyrnaeans, he wrote:

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness [of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop. He who honours the bishop has been honoured by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does [in reality] serve the devil. Let all things, then, abound to you through grace, for you are worthy. You have refreshed me in all things, and Jesus Christ [shall refresh] you. You have loved me when absent as well as when present. May God recompense you, for whose sake, while you endure all things, you shall attain unto Him.

I recognize that this will not be pleasing to some, but it is what it is.

15 posted on 01/11/2010 12:09:25 PM PST by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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