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To: DouglasKC; Diego1618
Then, a few verses later, (17:12 above) He said that He kept them in His name and none were lost. To me, He wasn't speaking about the disciples but all souls. He then adds that only the son of perdition was lost. The only one named that has been condemned to perdition is Satan.

That doesn't seem to work for a couple of reasons:

1. Satan isn't the only angelic being that was lost:

That is true, there are also the fallen angels but he is the only one named. Many will go into perdition and Judas could well be one of those but are there more than one "named" as the son of perdition?

2. If all souls are given to him, then Christ said that some would not ever know him:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

But because He will tell them, depart from Me, ye that work iniquity, doesn't mean they weren't given to Him.....it is that they didn't accept the salvation He offered. They were His but they refused Him.

But even if Apollyon means perdition, and Satan is Apollyon, the in a real sense Judas could be thought of as the "son of Satan", the son of perdition, because he did Satan's bidding:

Luk 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

You have hit upon the sticking point in the debate. I agree about the repentance of Judas and only our Father knows how much weight it will carry.

So, even though Judas did the bidding of Satan could he be considered THE son of perdition?

11 Thess.2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

We know that Satan has been condemned and we know that his fallen angels have also been condemned but no one human has yet been condemned. Are the humans those that Thou gavest Me...and none of them is lost? Of course then one would say....but Satan wasn't human.....Oh gosh, I don't know. It is a prickly problem.

I just continue to hold on to him being named THE son of perdition, not A son of perditon or SONS of perdition.

I thank you my friend for bringing this up. It is making an interesting study.

It is that....and I thank you for your thoughts.

......Ping

819 posted on 12/12/2007 3:45:18 AM PST by Ping-Pong
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To: Ping-Pong; Diego1618
That is true, there are also the fallen angels but he is the only one named. Many will go into perdition and Judas could well be one of those but are there more than one "named" as the son of perdition?

Okay, where do you see that Satan is going to "perdition"?

You have hit upon the sticking point in the debate. I agree about the repentance of Judas and only our Father knows how much weight it will carry.
So, even though Judas did the bidding of Satan could he be considered THE son of perdition?

You seem to be hung up on the word "perdition" as if it's a place or a person when it's only an archaic word that means "destruction" or "ruin" or "loss".

I see that saying "son of perdition" is kind of like saying he's a "son of a bitch." It's a figurative way to say what his character is like. He's about nothing but destruction and waste, he's a "son of destruction." Like a "son of a bitch" isn't really the son of a bitch but acts like a dog, a son of destruction's character is summed up in that their character is wanting to destroy.

Biblically the term seems reserved for those who do Satan's bidding because Satan is a destroyer. Therefore there can be more than one "son of perdition".

I just continue to hold on to him being named THE son of perdition, not A son of perditon or SONS of perdition.

All I can suggest is that you continue to study and use all the resources you can. Often when starting off studying people will want to hold on to their own ideas instead of believing what scripture actually says.

820 posted on 12/12/2007 10:46:15 AM PST by DouglasKC
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