Posted on 07/07/2007 7:48:37 PM PDT by tnarg
Mark it down as biblical truth: There is no pre-tribulation rapture.
However, untold thousands believe in the "secret rapture of the church" prior to the tribulation period. This is because untold thousands don't want to have to think of suffering through a tribulation time frame. The late Corrie ten Boom called this pre-trib rapture teaching the "American doctrine." Go figure.
The belief in a secret rapture of believers before the tribulation is also because of a best-seller, "The Late, Great Planet Earth," by Hal Lindsey which was set loose in the l960s. It has been a paperback aggressively pushed by practically every evangelical / fundamentalist engine going.
Theologians, videos, films and preachers bolster up this myth with their earnest preachings and teachings.
Yet this is nothing but a myth, accented as much by certain theologically conservative Protestant segments similar unto the Roman Catholic underlining of the immaculate conception of Mary. Nevertheless, if there is no biblical support for such a Mariology teaching, it is bogus. Likewise, the pre-tribulation rapture teaching is bogus.
The pre-trib rapture concept was manufactured in the 1800s in an 18 year old Plymouth Brethren girl's dream, told to her Pastor, John Darby, and then relayed to C. I. Scofield who bought into the dream as revealed truth. Scofield placed this pre-tribulation rapture notion as a footnote in his popular Bible, hence the spread of the myth.
However, just the opposite is biblical truth. In Matthew 24:29-3l, for instance, the rapture ("gathering together") is placed in the same time frame as the open second coming of Jesus Christ. And all of this is "after the tribulation" (verse 29). That is it in a nutshell!
Yet pre-tribulation rapturists sidestep this clear passage for more oblique passages. The latter are twisted and turned in order to fit into the "American doctrine." Yet such twisting is not sound exegesis. And for biblically-riveted evangelicals and fundamentalists to commit this drastic error is bordering on the horrific.
All other passages in Scripture relating to the "gathering together unto Him" must refer back to the literal time line provided by Jesus in Matthew 24.
One must not use a symbolic passage in the Book of Revelation or any other symbolically-based section of the Bible by which to draw a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.
Further, one must not take words of the apostle Paul so as to insert them opportunistically into a conjured pre-tribulation string of Scripture references. Yet this has been done ad infinitum.
Instead, Jesus' literalism of Matthew 24 must be used as the benchmark for all other "gathering together" themes of Scripture.
One starts with literalism and moves into symbolism when seeking to understand Scripture; it is not the other way around.
During the 1970s and 1980s there was much written and preached about a pre-tribulation rapture. This has wound down some in the last decade or so. Why?
Today, with the world situation being what it is, there is not that much risk-taking in preaching dogmatically the pre-tribulation rapture. Why?
Is it because there are many who are beginning to question its validity? Is it because the world state is so uncertain that to go out on a limb with a false hope may ricochet?
One wonders, with world events progressively becoming more and more anti-Christian, why the pre-tribulation rapture persons are not celebrating each dawn as the day when Jesus may return to earth.
Such is not the phenomenon on a large scale. Furthermore, it may be because the next generation has not bought into this notion.
In any case, it is a myth, a legend of conservative Protestantism's own conjuring and has no base in the Holy Scriptures.
Yet these very Protestants are the ones who ardently point out the myths of Catholicism while holding to some of their own myths. Both segments of Christendom need to do some serious housecleaning of manufactured legends in order to return to the simple Bible truths; otherwise, the church suffers from severe lack of knowledge.
What is so frightening about holding to a pre-tribulation rapture? It is more than mere academic quibbling. Holding to such a notion is drastically weakening the church worldwide.
The church should be preparing for spiritual battle against the most evil forces arrayed by hell.
Instead, the church is languishing with a false hope. This is all orchestrated by the demonic powers in order to eventuate in a limp army of believers. And to see that through in this age of laxity in religion does not take much on the part of the dark powers. In addition, the apostate segment of religion is doing its fair share of blackening truth.
Does it take much intelligence to realize that there are awesomely wretched days yet ahead for the righteous remnant?
Those who are not strong will drop--fall away, as biblically predicted. They will be too numerous to contemplate. But for those who are truly into carrying the daily cross there will be nothing able to thwart their zeal for Christ.
Already the remnant is being strengthened by the Spirit of light. He is gathering His own together in the power of the resurrection and the might of the revealed Word. There numbers are few; but their ardor before the Father is lovingly honored.
Set your vision upon the difficulties yet to be. They are but the trials permitted by the coming Christ.
At the close of the tribulation period, then there will be the gathering together of the believers from the four corners of the earth. They will greet Jesus in the clouds as He descends through space, having left the right hand of the Father in heaven.
The gathering together ("rapture") and the second advent then will be realized as one and the same event occurring at the end of the tribulation time frame. Jesus' declaration in Matthew 24:29-3l states it clearly.
Since you did not object to any other points that I made, let me begin to build on one of them.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.Here we have the scripture preaching to Abraham even before the Bible was written. From a typical point of view, it is easy. Christ, the word, is preaching to Abraham. We are told in Rev 19:10 “the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” We can conclude that anything in the Old Testament that testifies of Christ is prophecy because Christ was yet future. The question is; how much of the Old Testament testifies of Christ. Hold that thought and consider an example from the Book of Ruth
There were two harvests in Ruth, and Ruth was redeemed at the end of the first harvest. Does this have something to do with eschatology? I will leave it to you to begin to keep score.
Seven
First to LiteKeeper: I Did not set out to prove anything but only to give an opinion. The Statement about Michael, as you know now, relates to what was said before about Michael being the restrainer or he letteth the things we are talking about happen. He would not let you tell him he was railing on the Christian church for instance and that is partly why I am answering you now. Where have, even I, railed on the Christian church? If you think that you have not yourself crucified Christ by sinning when you knew him to be your heavenly father, then you are self-righteous. The true message here is to love your sisters and brothers before they fall into the pits of deception through Pre-tribulation doctrine.
Second to caseinpoint: Yes, I agree it weakens the body in those two ways but it along with those arguments it also weakens the traditional mindset that God can protect us from anything; that there will be one rapture and only one rapture; it weakens the unity of the Church to have so many different doctrines; it will allow Satan to move into control over those who think they are left here and disfranchised. The 2d Book 2d Chapter of Thessalonians is all about how misunderstanding and disbelief in the truth that will deceive many at the end times even to death. This is not to be held lightly as an error in interpretation; this is evidence of evil. The Pre-tribulation Doctrine is an insidious tool used by the son of perdition and we probably do not know the half of it.
Third to PING-PONG: You are called and others will follow even as I have called you. I think Jesus said something like this to Peter. So, we cannot deny our sisters and brothers. The old testament speaks of a 1000 years with Christ on earth but the New Testament teaches a New Creation of Heaven and Earth together. Rev. 12:7: Actually states, Then war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels battled against the dragon. The dragon and its angels fought back, 8; but they did not prevail and there was no longer any place for them in heaven;(and then it goes on to say) 12 Therefore, rejoice, you heavens, and you who dwell in them, But woe to you, earth and sea, for the Devil has come down to you in great fury, for he knows he has but a short time. (Then I think the prophet goes on to include the Church in this battle but as you say I dont think the church is the one who letteth or restraineth either; the Lord knows that the church is not restraining much right now nor has the power to hold on to much of anything, especially tradition). hmmm
Next to Iscool: You are deceived my friend. You need to discern the scripture with the power of the Holy Spirit. These quotes that you use have a different context than the ones you espouse. You are correct we should always be ready but ready for what? A false rapture that will lead you into destruction? I’m not sure if you’re old enough to remember the Jim Jones episode but it was similar to what you are getting yourself in to.
Next to the-reader-David: God blessed you already man…you’ve seen the wonders of the Holy Spirit and do not worry about me after all this is my last hurrah. Yes, you are connecting with the concepts put forth about tradition. I myself am not catholic but there is something to a standard and if the catholic church was not blessed by God would it still be here? Many have fallen by the wayside to be sure.
The next to all of you especially caseinpoint and labette: I think Christ stated that you should look to heaven for your treasures and not keep them on earth where they will be destroyed or stolen, so prepare your hearts and the Lord will protect you. That is his instruction and keep watch and that is exactly what we are doing and I love you all. Remember in verse 11 of 2d Thes. it says God is sending the deceiving power so that they may believe the lie. He is not trying to save us. He is testing you big time. So seek the truth and you shall find it. God Bless you all in all your tribulations and learn from your trials…Thanks for being a part of this conversation as I have been trying to find a topic like this for quite a while. Lots of great depth thanks.
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Those are good points and ones I have not heard before.
He does give us instructions and tells us how the end will happen and what season it will happen in. We are not to know the day and hour but we are to know the season.
First, when you say "starvation is in the forecast", think spiritually. There will be famine, as there always has been and is now, but the famine God warns us of is found in Amos 8:11 -
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord.
That is what the famine will be and it has already begun. Many times in our churches you will hear one or two lines of scripture and the rest of the hour is filled with hot air, it can be pretty hot air (music and singing), or our religious leaders telling jokes, telling us how to be good, etc. but we are still not "hearing the words of the Lord".
Case in point (I'm hijacking your name CIP) would be Joel Osteen. Look at the size of his congregation and they all believe they are learning about the Lord. Ask one of them what they learned at the end of the sermon and you will see they are starving for God's word but they just don't know it.
Another part of not hearing His words, connected to end times, is that if you are being taught you will be raptured then you are not being taught what Jesus said in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. There He tells us what will happen and when. He gives instructions to stay away from false teachers coming in His name (Christian) and warns us not to believe them. He tells us there will be two tribulations and that He will not arrive until after the one of Satan. He tells us we may NOT buy food while Satan is in power so yes, you should store a supply for your family.
As God is coming to earth I don't think He would allow nuclear holocaust so I don't believe a bomb shelter is necessary. His biggest warning is that we should know His Word, should know truth and that is what will take us through the tribulation of Satan. Knowing truth will keep us from falling for Satan's deceit. If we withstand his lies (don't take the mark of the beast) and wait for the true Christ then the wrath of God will not harm us. He won't be angry at us, we are His children. Then we will be like the 3 children in the fire.
Luke 21:18. But there shall not an hair of your head perish..
The first is the most difficult for Christians as that is the time you are tested. Will you fall for Satan's lies during that time of peace and prosperity - a big love fest. Most won't know it is a tribulation. You are prepared by God as you know His truth, that the first one is the fake. The 2nd tribulation, that of Christ, is a time of His wrath and if you remained a virgin (did not follow Satan) then you stand on the Rock and will not be harmed. The world is in for a great shaking but you are His child.
Please see the first paragraph of post 528, caseinpoint is correct. That is how we prepare physically and we prepare spiritually by reading, with understanding, His Word.
I disagree...These are the Jews...God's chosen people from the beginning who rejected Jesus at His first coming...
Iscool, the Romans 11 scripture you quoted is not about the Jews but is about the house of Israel (not the nation of Israel)
Rom.11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
That "house of Israel" are the Christian people of today. He is speaking to us.
The church is gone...The church, the espoused Bride is at the Wedding Ceremony in Heaven...
He is coming here, He will meet us here.
I agree with you Iscool, about the trinity of Satan. The religious beast, the role of anti-christ that Satan plays and that old serpent, the dragon himself make up that disgusting threesome.
I assume then you do not take Revelation literally...It's not going to 'not be pretty', it's going to be a castrophe of the likes that the world has never seen (or even imagined)...Many Christians will be murdered for refusing to take the Mark of the Beast or refusing to worship the Anti-Christ...
Again, I believe this means spiritually. Satan will take your souls so it is a spiritual death, not physical. It will be such a catastrophic event, "the likes that the world has never seen", because the world will wonder after him - most will fall for his lies and believe he is Jesus. The murder refers to their souls.
Isn't the 1,000 years the millennium, during which time all those that didn't make the "first resurrection" are taught without the influence of Satan. The New Testament speaks of that and tells us that at it's close there will be a rejuvenation, and that is the eternity. Is this what you are saying or do you mean something else? Both of these times refer to us being on earth, that is where heaven will be in the eternity.
God is sending the deceiving power so that they may believe the lie. He is not trying to save us. He is testing you big time. So seek the truth and you shall find it.
I agree. He sent Christ to save us and now it is up to us. Who will we believe - man or God?
All this stuff is a metaphor??? The detailed descriptions of the plagues are spiritual???
How about the Crucifixion??? That could be 'spiritual as well...No one died on a cross...That was spiritual...A metaphor...
And all the Old Testament prophecies??? Spiritual as well???
And the flood??? The Ark was spiritual too???
Maybe the Creation was spiritual...
I'm not into that style of theology...The entire bible is spiritual except, Eat my flesh and drink my blood...That's physical...
Grant, is that you?
No, I don't think it is a metaphor. The world is in for a difficult time but there are things to consider.
God tells us that the tribulation of Satan is one of peace and prosperity. He won't behead anyone because he is supposed to be Christ. He "kills" with deceit, he kills souls with his lies and they won't know they have been taken until the true Christ arrives. That is when there is wailing and gnashing of teeth, when those who have loved God all their lives realize they followed the false one.
Dan 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
Vile person is one of the names given to the anti-christ.
That peace is one of the clues that it isn't Jesus, for He told us in Luke 12:51:
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division.
During the time of Satan's tribulation is when you cannot buy or sell (Rev.13:16-18) unless you worship Satan. You must be prepared for that time for God tells us in Rev.14:9
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, (10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
The only ones to receive His wrath are those that followed Satan. Notice that the "mark" was "in" his forehead. It just means that they fell for his lies, they were taken by his deceit and believed him. To have a mark in his hand is a Hebraism and means you work for him.
A question would be just how long will the wrath of God last. Will we go through it in our physical or spiritual bodies? Remember 1 Corinthians 15:52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed.
Does that change happen as soon as Christ sets foot on the Mt of Olives or does it happen after His wrath is poured out? I believe it is after His wrath but either way, we will not be harmed. We will go through it unscathed as did Noah, the children in the firey furnace, Daniel in the lion's den, etc. We have nothing to fear.
We are to stay through the end for a purpose. That is our destiny as a Christian.
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.
13.And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14.Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15.For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Those were the words of Jesus as He told His disciples what would happen during the end times. We, as His children, are to stand and allow the Holy Spirit to speak through us so God's Words go out to the world and all that are meant to be, will be saved.
Christ goes on to tell us that "but there shall not an hair of your head perish", as well as that we will be betrayed by parents, brethren, etc.:
16. And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
How can you be put to death and at the same time not have a hair harmed? Death is one of Satan's names. It just means we will be put before him and that is when the Holy Spirit will speak through us.
We have nothing to fear but we must know that Satan will be so good at what he does that it will be very, very difficult to resist him if we do not know the truth, that he comes first pretending to be Christ. He is so good that Christ shortened his time for the sake of His elect.
I get weary of this topic from time to time . . . and this thread seems like a particularly weary-ing one.
So, have been quite comfortable avoiding it, mostly.
Nevertheless, I feel constrained in my spirit to wade back in . . . for whatever . . . benefit to whomever . . .
I’m not feeling overly inclined to wade into the tediousness of a lot of it . . . though I may cite some specifics from some references . . . But I will most likely pontificate my opinions as usual.
Blessings . . .
FTDeclaration . . .
Just a quick . . . note . . . I know the ‘pre-existence’ of the soul is hotly debated in a number of quarters . . . and yet, for me, has never been a big issue neither in my Pentecostal denominations nor personally.
However, Scripture notes that God knew us in our mother’s womb . . . and a similar Scripture that’s not coming fully to mind indicates He knew us prior to conception. Doesn’t surprise me nor jangle my Christianity any.
Now . . . to the . . . unfestivities . . .
I think it is an inescapable part of CURRENT, RECENT HISTORY that
All the Children of Israel—all 12 tribes are represented in the reconstituted NATION OF ISRAEL.
And, that they are collectively called Jews for historical fuzzy kinds of sociological/political reasons over substantial periods of time.
I don’t know that haggling over Biblical history on the matter is all that pertinent.
Certainly they were called the different labels in Biblical times for those historical reasons.
How much did that labeling history result in today’s labeling confusion? Who can say, but God.
I suspect there is already DNA data to affirm that the 12 tribes are represented in Israel today and are called collectively, Jews.
Certainly God knows where each descendent of each Patriarch is. He won’t have any trouble forming the 144,000 brigade of “Jewish” missionaries—12,000 from each tribe . . . evidently not all THAT far off.
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Seems like entirely too much poisonous tone, words and feelings have entered the thread.
I try to reserve “cultist” for a fairly narrow definition.
I don’t know that I agree with anyone 100% hereon. But folks who are at all Biblical in the essentials deserve my respect and understanding.
I have significant differences with most folks hereon. Ping Pong and I certainly do not agree 100%. But I respect ?her? courage and energy to seek and share Biblical, spiritual truths and to be where God would have her be.
One thing is very certain as well as scriptural. They are not sitting in a little country in the Middle East surrounded by terrorist states.
= = =
Yes, and no.
They ARE in Israel
AND,
they ARE still largely spread amongst all the nations.
Both things are true . . . for now.
It is the height of arrogance to speak for God.
= = =
Depends.
Wasn’t so for Moses, or St Paul . . . or John the Beloved.
One needs to be sure it is truly God’s msg one is speaking.
On the other hand . . . (with different fingers) . . . pastors, preachers, teachers . . . speak for God in pulpits around the World constantly. Most, if not all, spout this or that error; personal private interpretation etc. etc. etc. to some greater or lesser degree . . . some with more or less foundation for their pontifications.
I certainly think the degree of human arrogance makes a difference in the degree of error.
But I haven’t found many even near totally humble . . . in ministry.
But the labels thrown at fellow FREEPERS and BELIEVERS . . . on this thread . . . grieve my spirit. I don’t think they are necessary and are certainly not Christ-like.
Actually, God is evidently going to go to considerable lengths to . . .
RESURRECT . . .
our . . .
bodies.
Yes, the Spirit and human spirit are often Biblically cast as infinitely beyond “the flesh.”
But, I don’t think the emphasis of the GREAT SNATCH is on our bodies, per se.
The emphasis is on BEING UNITED WITH CHRIST . . . WHOLESALE . . . even bodily.
There is a Biblical reality to THE GREAT SNATCH.
The only issues are . . . timing . . . and perhaps . . . who will get snatched.
Seems to me the critical issue vis a vis
Kingdom of Heaven vs Kingdom of God
is which is a subset of the other.
But I don’t know that even that is critical.
What is and what will be . . . is thoroughly out of our hands
EXCEPT THAT WE CAN CHOOSE TO RECEIVE CHRIST’S BLOOD, SALVATION AS A TICKET TO BOTH.
In a way, it seems to me that Heaven is a subset of the Kingdom of God if one construes all that is—the Kingdom of God.
Then there’s that former missionary to the Amazon who’s name I can’t recall and haven’t been able to find on the net . . . prayed and fasted off and on for 7 years to be able to go to Heaven and return to tell about it—claimed to have spent 5 earth days in Heaven . . . and that Heaven was a sphere a million miles in diameter . . . Interesting bunch of narrative, in any case. We shall see.
Blessings,
I’m sure someone has or will post the specific Scripture ref. It’s the one about that which hinders the enemy—until that which hinders the enemy or some similar wording . . . is taken out . . .
Many have construed that to be Holy Spirit. Others have construed it to be Holy Spirit in the Church etc. No small amount of debate has raged on the issue for decades or centuries.
I don’t believe Holy Spirit will be 100% removed from the world—else the atoms would fly apart, imho.
I could imagine that His indwelling individuals might be removed in terms of a routine thing. But God will still have His way even during the Anti-Christ’s horrid last 3.5 years’ reign when the wrath of God is poured out on the sin soaked world.
“The world is going to end by environmental collapse, and you will be damned unless you listen to me.”
“The world is going to end by God’s wrath, and you will be damned unless you listen to me.”
The same basic mentality drives both messages. Any kind of fixation with the end of the world is just strange and creepy. Live life: judgment day comes soon enough, and no matter what, you will have to defend your life and rise or fall on your record.
It happens at some distant time in the future, or it happens suddenly in the next moments. Either way, you’re in the same boat spiritually.
I repeat, God doesn’t give a crap about bodies;
= = =
And I repeat . . . . yes and no.
The RESURRECTION indicates otherwise—transforming our bodies into a Heavenly body indicates otherwise.
All the reports and pertinent Scriptures indicate that we do not become per se . . . “merely” ethereal beings of light, energy
. . . contrary to Stargate SG1, new age mysticism, Buddhism, and all the rest such . . .
All the Heavenly visitations reported on remotely reliably as well as the relevant Scriptures indicate that God has for us Heavenly Bodies . . . and that they experience joy, pleasure, communion with God . . . Christ is often depicted in Heaven holding and carressing children . . . in their Heavenly bodies . . . not playing prism games with globes of light.
But . . . it’s all future with scant hard facts to pontificate about . . . certainly not with the certainty that you seem to hold so vigorously to about it.
We are here to spread the good news of Jesus, but some of us (myself included at times) are so caught up in our own defense of our own theology that we miss the individual on the side asking for help. That is sad.
= = =
INDEED.
And the Scriptures posted about vain empty wrangling are also quite fitting.
Thanks.
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