Posted on 07/07/2007 7:48:37 PM PDT by tnarg
Mark it down as biblical truth: There is no pre-tribulation rapture.
However, untold thousands believe in the "secret rapture of the church" prior to the tribulation period. This is because untold thousands don't want to have to think of suffering through a tribulation time frame. The late Corrie ten Boom called this pre-trib rapture teaching the "American doctrine." Go figure.
The belief in a secret rapture of believers before the tribulation is also because of a best-seller, "The Late, Great Planet Earth," by Hal Lindsey which was set loose in the l960s. It has been a paperback aggressively pushed by practically every evangelical / fundamentalist engine going.
Theologians, videos, films and preachers bolster up this myth with their earnest preachings and teachings.
Yet this is nothing but a myth, accented as much by certain theologically conservative Protestant segments similar unto the Roman Catholic underlining of the immaculate conception of Mary. Nevertheless, if there is no biblical support for such a Mariology teaching, it is bogus. Likewise, the pre-tribulation rapture teaching is bogus.
The pre-trib rapture concept was manufactured in the 1800s in an 18 year old Plymouth Brethren girl's dream, told to her Pastor, John Darby, and then relayed to C. I. Scofield who bought into the dream as revealed truth. Scofield placed this pre-tribulation rapture notion as a footnote in his popular Bible, hence the spread of the myth.
However, just the opposite is biblical truth. In Matthew 24:29-3l, for instance, the rapture ("gathering together") is placed in the same time frame as the open second coming of Jesus Christ. And all of this is "after the tribulation" (verse 29). That is it in a nutshell!
Yet pre-tribulation rapturists sidestep this clear passage for more oblique passages. The latter are twisted and turned in order to fit into the "American doctrine." Yet such twisting is not sound exegesis. And for biblically-riveted evangelicals and fundamentalists to commit this drastic error is bordering on the horrific.
All other passages in Scripture relating to the "gathering together unto Him" must refer back to the literal time line provided by Jesus in Matthew 24.
One must not use a symbolic passage in the Book of Revelation or any other symbolically-based section of the Bible by which to draw a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.
Further, one must not take words of the apostle Paul so as to insert them opportunistically into a conjured pre-tribulation string of Scripture references. Yet this has been done ad infinitum.
Instead, Jesus' literalism of Matthew 24 must be used as the benchmark for all other "gathering together" themes of Scripture.
One starts with literalism and moves into symbolism when seeking to understand Scripture; it is not the other way around.
During the 1970s and 1980s there was much written and preached about a pre-tribulation rapture. This has wound down some in the last decade or so. Why?
Today, with the world situation being what it is, there is not that much risk-taking in preaching dogmatically the pre-tribulation rapture. Why?
Is it because there are many who are beginning to question its validity? Is it because the world state is so uncertain that to go out on a limb with a false hope may ricochet?
One wonders, with world events progressively becoming more and more anti-Christian, why the pre-tribulation rapture persons are not celebrating each dawn as the day when Jesus may return to earth.
Such is not the phenomenon on a large scale. Furthermore, it may be because the next generation has not bought into this notion.
In any case, it is a myth, a legend of conservative Protestantism's own conjuring and has no base in the Holy Scriptures.
Yet these very Protestants are the ones who ardently point out the myths of Catholicism while holding to some of their own myths. Both segments of Christendom need to do some serious housecleaning of manufactured legends in order to return to the simple Bible truths; otherwise, the church suffers from severe lack of knowledge.
What is so frightening about holding to a pre-tribulation rapture? It is more than mere academic quibbling. Holding to such a notion is drastically weakening the church worldwide.
The church should be preparing for spiritual battle against the most evil forces arrayed by hell.
Instead, the church is languishing with a false hope. This is all orchestrated by the demonic powers in order to eventuate in a limp army of believers. And to see that through in this age of laxity in religion does not take much on the part of the dark powers. In addition, the apostate segment of religion is doing its fair share of blackening truth.
Does it take much intelligence to realize that there are awesomely wretched days yet ahead for the righteous remnant?
Those who are not strong will drop--fall away, as biblically predicted. They will be too numerous to contemplate. But for those who are truly into carrying the daily cross there will be nothing able to thwart their zeal for Christ.
Already the remnant is being strengthened by the Spirit of light. He is gathering His own together in the power of the resurrection and the might of the revealed Word. There numbers are few; but their ardor before the Father is lovingly honored.
Set your vision upon the difficulties yet to be. They are but the trials permitted by the coming Christ.
At the close of the tribulation period, then there will be the gathering together of the believers from the four corners of the earth. They will greet Jesus in the clouds as He descends through space, having left the right hand of the Father in heaven.
The gathering together ("rapture") and the second advent then will be realized as one and the same event occurring at the end of the tribulation time frame. Jesus' declaration in Matthew 24:29-3l states it clearly.
Here are Scriptures supporting the point that God remembers Israel. Or to put it another way, God keeps all of His promises:
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes. – Romans 11:18-28
But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. - Jer 31:33-37
AMEN!
I need to put those on my home page, too.
Thanks tons as usual.
The only problem with that statement is that the Great Tribulation is the Wrath of God poured out on the world - ergo, if we are still here during that time, we will also receive His Wrath. There is no way to argue around that.
Jew was the name originally given for the Southern tribes (Judah, Benjamin and the Levites).
Over time, the usage of the word was to include all 12 tribes that had blended together from those who had gone into the Southern kingdom during the split.
Representatives of all 12 tribes were present in Palestine when the Lord came to offer Himself as King.
The House of Israel (the term for the Northern Kingdom-Zech 8:13) was specifically named by Peter as being responsible for the Lord's Crucifixion.(Acts.2:36)
So, those who we call Jews today are comprised of all 12 tribes (who James wrote to), not just 3.
There are those (British-Israelites) who think that the 'lost tribes' (those removed by Assyria) migrated to Europe and formed some of the Gentile nations of Europe, particularly England and later the United States.
So the United States is really 'Israel', since the Mid-East Israel is composed of only Jews and not 'Israelites'.
This view leads to all kind of confusion regarding prophetic events with Israel (Jews) and the church.
It also seems to carry over into other doctrinal areas as well, e.g. regarding the observance of Jewish Mosiac law.
I can't believe you said that. You don't have to agree but you certainly must know that isn't true. FTD something is very, very obvious to people reading these posts and it is the complete opposite of what you just posted.
Diego cannot read Greek or Hebrew and has admitted that in earlier posts.
You are following a guy who is correcting the Bible with an interlinear and a Lexicon.
Rom.11:25 means that most Jews are not being saved, but some are.
But all will be saved in the future when they see Christ return and receive Him as their Messiah (Zech.12:10, Jer.31:31, Heb.8:8)
Perhaps I'm wrong but it sounded that way when this discussion began. It sounded as if some considered them the same entity. If they now see a difference then our labors have been worth it.
Your 'labors' had nothing to do with it.
There is no Premillennial believer that believes that the nation of Israel is the same as the Kingdom of Israel.
The nation of Israel is secular, the Kingdom of Israel will be a Theocracy, as it was under Moses until the Babylonian captivity.
Since then Israel has never again been a Kingdom.
It has been a nation.
[ Third, those same tribes, called the house of Israel are referred to by Peter as being responsible for crucifying the Lord. (Acts.2:36) ]
He is naming the "house of Israel" but in saying that he is saying that all of God's chosen, all of the tribes, as well as Judah, who was there, are responsible and all need to repent and be baptized. He is telling us that Christ died for all of our sins.
Yes, that is correct, all of the 12 tribes were in Palestine and were responsible for the crucifion of Christ.
And Paul says that they were Jews (1Thess.2)
[ No Gentile nations are being blessed as Israel. ]
Wherever the children of the house of Israel are they are not gentile and they are God's chosen people. It doesn't matter if you do or do not believe it.
Well, it matters if it is true or not.
The children of the house of Israel are God's chosen people (Rom.11:28) and they are known as Jews, just as the tribe of Judah and Benjamin are.
[ The Jews are composed of all 12 tribes, since Christ is King of the Jews, all 12 tribes, not just 3. ]
, No the Jews are not all 12 tribes. Christ is King of the Jews and King of Israel, all 12 tribes. No one said He was king of just 3.
And the King of the Jews and King of Israel are the same.
Matt.27:42"He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He be the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him. Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe.".... John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto Him, "Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; Thou art the King of Israel." He is King of the Jews and of Israel. Remember that the Jews are of Israel but not all of Israel is of Judah.
No, all of Israel is Jewish, and that is why in Mk.15:26, Christ is called the King of the Jews.
You keep trying to make 'Israel' and the 'Jews' mean two different things and they do not.
[ No one disputes the fact that Israel and Judah divided, but the fact is that when they returned, they returned with members from all 12 tribes, not just 3. ]
That isn't true. They did not return. Please reread some of the posts and that is explained. The Jewish tribes did return, as shown in Ezra and Nehemiah, but not the northern tribes.
And you better read some Bible and even some of Diego's older posts, where he admits that people from the Northern tribes were indeed in the South and were known as the 'House of Israel'
2Chron.30 states that many from those Northern tribes came to the South for the Passover.
Moreover, after the Persians conquered the Babylonians, who had conquered the Assyrians, those same Northern tribe members could have returned, as did Anna's ancestors from the tribe of Aser.
I don't understand why you are not willing to accept this. The tribes will be joined together but that is yet future. If you believe they are together now then you believe God lies. I know you would never believe that so please rethink your arguments and read the scriptures that have been presented.
No, what you have to do is actually read the Bible and believe what it says.
The House of Israel and House of Judah, will be reunited as a Kingdom.
Jews today are a combination of all 12 tribes.
The Israelites are not a separate entity from the Jews, they are the same people under the title of the leading tribe-Judah.
Thanks for your clarifications.
Gen.12:1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2.And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3.And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."
That description is one of the reasons for the discussion on who and where the tribes are. The Jewish "Nation of Israel" didn't become a nation until 1948. The United States is a "great nation" and it blesses other "families of the earth" by coming to their aid. While through the Jewish tribe came our Saviour who blesses everyone on earth.
I believe God placed His children where He wanted them - part of that family in Judea and part in the Christian nations, all to be a blessing to the world.
That is essentially what this discussion is about. Where are "all" of those He made the promise to? As Diego said, surely not just the little city now surrounded by Arab states. There is a reason we feel the closeness with our brother and there is a reason others do not.
Only those that do not understand or have not been taught include all 12 tribes under the name Jew. They have not blended together. These things have been scripturally demonstrated to you yet you choose to remain blind to the facts. That of course is your right but you should not hinder others from learning the truth.
The House of Israel (the term for the Northern Kingdom-Zech 8:13) was specifically named by Peter as being responsible for the Lord's Crucifixion.(Acts.2:36)
You are incorrect. Please read it with understanding, as has been explained.
So, those who we call Jews today are comprised of all 12 tribes (who James wrote to), not just 3.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Open your eyes and ears.
This view leads to all kind of confusion regarding prophetic events with Israel (Jews) and the church.
It opens scripture to us. "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace" (1Cori.14:33) This knowledge brings understanding.
It also seems to carry over into other doctrinal areas as well, e.g. regarding the observance of Jewish Mosiac law.
Do you mean as the 10 Commandments? Those Mosaic laws, such as keeping the Sabbath?
OK, tell me why the association is bad. One reads your posts and has to heave a heavy shrug ask, so what?
Every single belief you have written here has been directly contradicted by written evidence, quoted from the source, indicating that your beliefs are just that, with no support. Is this evil of the "British Israelism" also similarly unfounded?
You have the ball. Run it or fumble it.
I believe you’re correct. Both in Daniel and Revelation there is mention of the Beast making war upon the saints and, for a time, overcoming them.
I finally took some time to look into the Bat Creek Stone. PM it looks as if there are as many who believe it is genuine as those that think it fake. As it was found at the head of what appears to be the skeletons of ancient priests I would side with it being genuine.
I guess it’s just a matter of opinion.
You see fit to compare certain posters to something called "British Israelism", which you give a definition of.
To retain credibility, and to make effective the tar job, you have to define what is wrong with that label?
What is wrong with "British Israelism"? It seems to fit the historical and Biblical facts. Give us your analysis. If you can't, why should anyone but ignoramuses and ill educated take you seriously?
What? Do you think that term is as well established and effective ad hominem as "racist" or "sexist" "homophobia" that you don't have to justify your words? A lot of people don't even know what it is.
Educate us, please.
When I first came to the Lord it was through movies about the tribulation, etc. I guess you could say it scared the ‘hell’ out of me. I thought for a long time that it would be pre-trib but not any longer. I just pray my family is ready...
I do too. I know since coming to know the Lord that I have loved Israel and the Jews more and more. I just hope they haven’t gone too far left to be as brave as they once were in fighting their enemies. But, God IS on their side and I just keep praying for the peace of Jerusalem, as he commands us to do.
I’m not sure I agree with all that but, we’ll find out soon enough. Just pray we’re all ready.
Do you realize what you are saying?
Truth and opinion are independent.
Seven
It fits no historical or Biblical facts-period.
The Israelites are Jews and the Jews are Israelites.
The Israelites did not migrate anywhere and there is not historical evidence that they did.
The only 'moonbats' are the British-Israelites who imagine otherwise.
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