Last time I checked the map Judah and Israel were united as one nation upon the mountains of Israel. I think the nation is called Israel.
But then I could be wrong about that too.
Posted on 07/07/2007 7:48:37 PM PDT by tnarg
They will be joined but that is yet future:
Ezekiel 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: (17) and join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. (22) And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
I'll explain it all to you when we get there.
Won't it be wonderful when we know the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
Last time I checked the map Judah and Israel were united as one nation upon the mountains of Israel. I think the nation is called Israel.
But then I could be wrong about that too.
167 ???
I and many other Christians disagree with some of that theology.
All of us can be Christians and disagree.
If so, at what point should the believer cease and move on?
When one accepts or dismisses. Isn't that two sided?
Matt. 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
It is diffucult to shake the dust off when the person causing the shaking leaves a statement unanswered. If it was just that person it would be easy but what if another was following the discussion and that statement wasn't answered scripturally?
They won't be united until - and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: That hasn't happened yet.
The "Nation" of Israel is not the same as the "House" of Israel. The 10 tribes (considered the lost tribes) were of the north. I don't know the year of the map you pictured but all the tribes were there at one time. Also remember, that today many that don't understand the separation, improperly consider Israel as Jews.
My point being; is this a current map of Israel, the nation of Israel or is it one of long ago when all tribes were there? Even the name on your map separates them by saying - The kingdoms of Israel and Judah. There is a difference.
Was Jesus a Jew? How about Peter or Andrew or John?
They were all from the Northern Kingdom. By your definition, they would have been of the lost tribes. But Jesus' geneaology suggests he was from the tribe of Judah. So what was he doing spending 90% of his life in the Northern Kingdom?
The fact is that by the time Christ was born, the tribes had intermarried so much that it was almost impossible to determine which tribe you were. Only God knew.
Jesus was a Jew. His lineage was Judah and Levi.
They were all from the Northern Kingdom. By your definition, they would have been of the lost tribes. But Jesus' geneaology suggests he was from the tribe of Judah. So what was he doing spending 90% of his life in the Northern Kingdom?
The northern tribes were gone long before the birth of Christ. They were taken into captivity by Assyria 200 years before Judah was taken into Babylon.
It sounds like a perfectly good word to me.
I'm not sure what you are saying. If you are waiting to disengage only when the person you are debating with accepts your position, that would be wrong. If you are saying that as soon as a person disagrees with you, then you should stop, that's not quite right either. If the person dismisses your view and reasons for that view, then I think you need to move on.
No that isn't what I am saying. Either party can accept or disagree but if they continue to state why you are wrong and you don't agree then shouldn't you tell them why you disagree? Again, it would be easy to stop if you didn't think others would be misled.
People can dismiss you and your interpretations, but they CANNOT dismiss God's Word and the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
Well said Scubie........Ping
2nd Thes 2:7
Please note the discernment between the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as opposed to being in fellowship with God through faith in Christ.
The Church Age is unique in that each and every believer is indwelt by God the Holy Spirit, in their bodies. This in turn provides a temple of their bodies for the indwelling of Christ in the believer who is also one with the Father.
Whenever the Holy Spirit is withdrawn, so to will that believer be withdrawn for nothing can separate us.
This is not the situation during the Great Tribulation.
THe best interpretations I’ve understood, place about a 3-1/2 yr to 7 yr period of bema seat rewards and wedding feast with our Lord prior to His return for a great battlefield victory in which all his enemies shall be made a footstool for his feet.
The remnant remains, during the Tribulation, thereby not only fulfilling Prophecies regarding the Hebrew nation of Israel, but also manifesting His grace for all whose names are written in the Book of Life. Nevertheless, woe unto them who remain here during that time of Jacob’s Trouble.
Thank you Cvengr but it is another verse I have been thinking of. It mentions Him being taken from us for a short time (as far as I remember) but I can't find it. I'll keep looking.
The remnant remains, during the Tribulation, thereby not only fulfilling Prophecies regarding the Hebrew nation of Israel, but also manifesting His grace for all whose names are written in the Book of Life. Nevertheless, woe unto them who remain here during that time of Jacob’s Trouble.
I haven't heard this before (the remnant remaining). I'll take that into account as I study.
I don’t follow the reasoning behind associating physical pain as developing our spirit. Our spirit is only sanctified by Him, and only while we remain in faith through Him by our strength of volition, again through faith in Him.
Pain might be an evidence of testing to discern our strength of volition and manifest by our hearts, but not to be confused as the act of sacrificing or making a payment for something. That was already performed by our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus, once and for all eternity.
We also possess a resurrection body. Nothing God creates is good for nothing, although by the volition of others they may scar what He has created to a point to where it is no longer useful for righteousness in His plan.
If God didn’t care about bodies, he wouldn’t go to as much trouble saving so many. He has created us body, soul, and spirit in Adam, and also in the Second Adam.
Evidently God does.
When we are children, we seek pleasure and avoid pain. As we mature, we begin to be willing to experience pain for gain.
I've experienced emotional and physical pain in my life. It has toughened me, made me stronger and more confidant, less fearful, more willing to place my fate in God's hands, to seek Him.
The Catholic church still has some particles of truth; ask them.
I'm sure you would like to be taken up before you have to experience discomfort. I don't think that will happen, but if it makes you face the day with a positive attitude, go for it.
The Rapture terminates the Church Age. The Second Advent terminates the Jewish age.
| RAPTURE EVENT |
RAPTURE VERSE |
2nd COMING EVENT |
2nd COMING VERSE |
|---|---|---|---|
| Private | Acts 1:11 | Public | Rev 1:7 |
| Occurs in the air | 1 Thes 4:17 | Occurs on earth | Zech 14:4 |
| Church goes to heaven | Jn 14:3 | Church returns with Christ | 1 Thes 3:13 |
| Judgment of believer's works | Mt 25:31-46 | Baptism of fire | 2 Cor 5:10 |
| Removal of ministry of Spirit as a restrainer | 2 Thes 2:6 | Removal of Satan | Rev 20:1-3 |
| Change in believer's body | Phil 3:21 | Change in the earth | Zech 14:9 Rom 8:19-22 |
| Christ appears as the Groom | Christ appears as the Messiah | ||
| End of Church Age | End of Jewish age | ||
| Israel still under fifth cycle of discipline | Fifth cycle of discipline ended for Israel | ||
| Believer taken from the earth | 1 Thes 4:16-18 | Unbeliever taken from the earth | Matt 24:37-43 |
| Source of comfort | 1 Thes 4:18 | Source of terror | Rev 6:15-17 |
Could you show me where it says this....that remnants of all 12 tribes eventually ended up in Judah?
Frankly I don't know why anyone feels the need to make a big deal about it. I don't plan on being here when it happens.
The reason we are making any kind of a "deal" out of it.....it is something mainstream Christianity ignores and attempts to cover up because it disturbs their "touchy feely" view of the work of the Apostles.
Our Lord directed the twelve to go where??? Israel....not the Gentiles....but to Israel! [Matthew 10:5-6] He then selected Paul to evangelize the Gentiles [Acts 9:15]. Then mainstream Christianity comes up with a non scriptural theory that Peter ignores this directive from The Lord and goes to Rome to establish the Church. Utter nonsense!
Peter evangelizes the circumcised (including the Jews and Israel) [Galatians 2:7-9][1 Peter 1:1-2], and never appears in Rome in the pages of scripture. He only goes to Cornelius....not to evangelize (Cornelius was already a man of God), but to show the way to salvation for the Gentiles.... directed by the Holy Spirit. He does this because God's chosen Apostle is still in Arabia sorting things out [Galatians 1:17]!
So....here we have the beginning story of Christianity....(according to the word of God), which is about 180 degrees opposite of what the Catholic Church has been teaching for two millennia. Unfortunately, Martin Luther was also ignorant of this false doctrine.The error is based primarily on the misunderstanding of "Just who constitutes the Nation of Israel".....then and now!
As I have pointed out in earlier postings, first century historians said the the Ten Tribes were still beyond the Euphrates River and of such a multitude that no one could count them. They also said there were two Tribes left in Asia "Minor" subject to Roman control. These two tribes were obviously Judah and Benjamin (Levi was split between the two). Peter and the twelve were instructed by Our Lord to go (beyond the Euphrates).....to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, but ask anyone member of the main stream church about it and you'll get this:
Frankly I don't know why anyone feels the need to make a big deal about it.....as he rolls his eyes and shakes his head.
Jesus descended from David through the line of Nathan [Luke 3:23-31]. Jesus was a Jew.
They were all from the Northern Kingdom. By your definition, they would have been of the lost tribes.
No....by my definition they were of Judea. The two Kingdoms of Israel and Judah had been gone for quite a while by the time Our Saviour and his Disciples were born. Israel was exiled to Assyria in 721 B.C. so you can see that it was about as long before the first century as the crusades in the thirteenth century were before us. Judah was exiled to Babylon in 595 B.C. 126 years later. It would be very difficult to be a citizen of a country that has not existed for 700 years or so. Judah did come back from captivity 70 years later (Ezra and Nehemiah document this) but they were known by the first century as Judea.....and they had a phony King.
The fact is that by the time Christ was born, the tribes had intermarried so much that it was almost impossible to determine which tribe you were.
Where is your proof of this? Are you just supposing or can you document it?
No....Anyone who migrated from the North to the Southern Kingdom of Judah also became known as a Jew. [II Chronicles 11:5-17] Rehoboam ruled in Judah 931/914 B.C. so understand that this was 200 years prior to the Assyrian exile. The people who remained in the North with their individual tribes were never called Jews.
FTD says that “Jew” and “Israelite” are interchangeable
They are if you are Jewish. The Jews were one of the tribes of Israel. This is like saying all Californians are American but not all Americans are Californians.
In your post #238 you said that some of the tribes migrated around the Black Sea. Perhaps these were the “Jews which were of Asia.” (Acts 21:27)
[1 Peter 1:1-2] shows that there were folks living in this area who had a foreknowledge of God and Peter is evangelizing them as he was instructed to do in [Matthew 10:5-6]. This is conjecture on my part....but they were probably a remnant from the Assyrian exile 700 years before. The reason I believe this is because that was part of ancient Assyria and Peter is doing what he is supposed to be doing! The Apostle Paul is actually told to stay out of here [Acts 16:6-7] as they were not his responsibility. They were not Jews....they were definitely not Gentiles....they were probably Israelites from the Ten tribes.
Would you argue that Passover is for just three tribes?
I would argue that Passover is for everyone who calls them self a Christian. We are no where in scripture told to ignore this Festival of the Lord. The last living Apostle, John....instructed his disciples to observe this as well.
From Polycrates of Ephesus: Regarding the celebration of Passover.
If Passover had been abolished by Our Lord don't you think the Apostle John would have received the memo?
There is nothing wrong with splitting hairs. Sometimes it leads to great discoveries.
We see Christians all over the world being murdered and tortured for their Faith. Any Christian who thinks they are special and that won't have to suffer as the ones who have already been martyred are delusional. Prepare, or beware! The only thing anyone should be concerned with is leading the lost into Salvation!
So....here we have the beginning story of Christianity....(according to the word of God), which is about 180 degrees opposite of what the Catholic Church has been teaching for two millennia. Unfortunately, Martin Luther was also ignorant of this false doctrine.The error is based primarily on the misunderstanding of "Just who constitutes the Nation of Israel".....then and now!
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
According to the count of fighting men, there were four or five million in the House of Israel. There is no indication that there were that many plus the House of Judah in Judea during Christ.
There would not have been much attrition of the Israel ranks of men, women and children over the centuries because they were on the northern boundaries of Assyria with small groups of other peoples to act as buffer.
However, old Assyrians records in the British museum indicate Israel did not go to Judea when they won their freedom from Assyria. There are indications they went to Europe through Turkey, according to records of sightings of people wearing traditional Israelite priest robes and headdress from Assyrian outposts (pictures were scratched on the tablets).
Just the combined population of Judea alone should discard the meeting of the two houses, I would think. Not to mention that Hosea 1:10-11 predicts the the two houses will reunite at some future time and get right with God.
There has been no evidence that that happened.
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