I’m back for a few minutes - I was shocked to notice I spent 4 1/2 hours responding to you guys this afternoon - which is one reason why I’ve discontinued apologetics - there’s not enough days responding to recycled arguments.
Joseph Smith a liar? Sure he lied, but his fallibility does not invalidate his prophetic mantle anymore than Peter’s repeated lies invalidated his. The prophet Samuel even murdered a bound prisoner - he chopped him to pieces and yet, presumably, you still believe he was a genuine prophet.
I have my own mind - I can determine for myself the credibility of Joseph Smith’s cosmology and I also can evaluate the Book of Mormon’s literary merit, even without receiving an answered prayer. Heck, if Harold Bloom, a secular Jew and America’s greatest literary critic can; as an author and analyst, I can do likewise. My conclusion is in accord with his - simply unrivaled.
Joseph Smith lied to his church to serve his own personal interests in a sermon. It should make you evaluate Smith’s credibility and not base your life on his words. I’ve never worried about the “literary” merit of prophecy. It’s whether it is true or not. Tens of Joseph Smith’s prophecies failed. Each can be dealt with in some fashion, I’m sure, by an apologist creating some argument, any argument, to explain it away, but cumulatively they show a false prophet. As far as “years” of looking at Mormon theology goes, that’s not the case with me. Growth in the Mormon church stalled, it didn’t impact me, until Romney started his run and I had to figure out what the Mormons believed and whether they were a cult.
I’m shocked that anyone falls for it given Smith’s history, the Jewish Indian history in the Book of Mormon, wholly unsupported by archeological, genetic, linguistic or written evidence, the promulgation of doctrine and then the alteration or denial of it by the Mormon church (only polygamists can get into the Celestial Kingdom, only now monogamists can too, as one example), the bragging of Smith that he is greater than Christ, the clear contradiction of Biblical scripture in doctrine after doctrine of the Mormon church, yet the concurrent claim that the Bible is inspired by God (for example the judgment of Smith to enter heaven rather than Christ alone, another example Christ’s clear words that there is no marriage in heaven while Mormon doctrine is that marriage is continued in heaven), the adoption of Masonic rites into Mormon temple ceremonies, etc. It’s hard to believe that intelligent people continue in the faith as true believers. I know from testimony of former Mormons that the Mormon church breaks up families and demands or at least encourages divorce if one of the spouses leaves the church. All these things should raise huge red flags for anyone in the Mormon religion or considering it. The apologists I’ve seen online here for the Mormons aren’t clear in their language (denying polytheism yet believing in multiple gods) and sort of hide the ball regarding their beliefs. I don’t think you do that to your credit.
It’s not literature. It’s your relationship with God that is at stake, your soul. Literary merit is irrelevent to that. And as far as literature goes, did Bloom read the 1830 or the 1837 Book of Mormon? Because the 1830 version sure got a lot of verb tenses wrong. Mormons are asked to believe that the spectacles provided by God had poor grammar that had to be cleaned up in a later printing. Thousands of things, from history of the founder and early church, to lack of evidence, to changes in doctrine should lead to the understanding that the Book of Mormon is false.
Stop apologizing and start thinking, please. I’m not the judge but the words of the Bible applied to your situation are pretty grim when it comes to your relationship with God. I don’t know what Mormon’s feel when they believe they’ve been touched by the Holy Spirit. I know that I was touched by the Holy Spirit, and I didn’t pray for it, I didn’t have have someone direct my prayers to a particular book, or any other gimmicks that can be used to pull in a seeker. Three words of scripture on the back of a book cover and I was off, the Spirit came in waves and it lasted for many days, and I was a different man after than before. I was a complete athiest prior and now have no doubt that God exists. I also have not found the red flags in Christianity that I know you have to see in Mormonism. I’ve had the reverse experience. The evidence supports the Bible. Think about how nice it would be to believe in scripture that is supported by evidence and reality.
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To: MHGinTN
Ditto to you. I’m glad I participated here today - I won’t again for a very long while since it’s a waste of time and effort. You anti-Mormons with your smug arrogance and constant lies and misrepresentations about my church are a drain on the soul and you deserve what you get when the time comes. Christ is definitely not pleased when his so-called followers behave in such a manner. I’m also glad to see there’s still no substance to your arguments - perhaps someone, someday will follow our exchanges and see who between us faced the facts without engaging in logical fallacies. I’m outta here! 590 posted on 07/10/2007 5:54:07 PM CDT by Edward Watson (Fanatics with guns beat liberals with ideas)
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