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To: Rameumptom
I still content that total depravity is not what is meant by that passage you quote.

Can you explain why you do not believe that is so? If you don't believe it is saying that, then what exactly do you think it is saying, in context and why do you think that based on other scriptures?

If God meant total depravity then why doesn't he say so? It's really pretty simple

Many would argue that this is exactly what He is simply saying. Just because YOU say it isn't saying that does not make it so. Give some scritptural proof for these. Who do you think will believe you on just your authority? Do you? Should you?

235 posted on 07/06/2007 2:09:04 PM PDT by lupie
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To: lupie
Google the Bible text and "total depravity". It is not in there. Why should I have to prove a negative.

The Calvinists and Arminians have been arguing about this one longer than the Latter Day Saints have been around. I don't want to reproduce a debate that has raged among "orthodox" Christians for centuries on this thread. you can read about it on wiki or google it if you want. I'll just say since when has the non-Biblical "total Depravity" been the standard of who is a Christian or not?

Here I'll give you Freebie. This is a parallel example using mormon Scripture. In Sunday School classes once in a while the theolgical discussion will turn to "Free Agency." As Americans especially we like to discuss this topic. However it is not based in the actual text of Mormon Scripture. The term used is "Moral Agency". Every man may act according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, D&C 101: 78. IOW, there is a subtle textual distinction. Now no one really cares too much about it in class but there is a difference between Free agency and moral agency. One implies we can do anything we want. many secualr liberal Americans fall into the "Free to do anything I want with no consequence" trap. The other implies that there is a moral piece attached to what God has "freely" given us, IOW, what we do with our agency has moral consequence. Now the Calvinists have proposed that what the Bible really means is "total depravity". Arminians (and Mormons) reject this interpretation. It is a subtle textual change of what the scriptures really say.

240 posted on 07/06/2007 2:33:19 PM PDT by Rameumptom (Gen X= they killed 1 in 4 of us)
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