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To: Rameumptom

Rameumptom:”many of the words you are using (that were added later by Greek Philosophers) should be disqualified.

totally depraved
wholly man yet wholly God.
inerrant

Jesus never used these words. The Apostles never did.”

Of course Jesus never used the word “God” either since he didn’t speak english, but of course we can interpret his actual words to our own language.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
(i.e. totally depraved)

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
(i.e. wholly man yet wholly God)

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God
(i.e. inerrant)


143 posted on 07/05/2007 8:22:33 PM PDT by visually_augmented (I was blind, but now I see)
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To: visually_augmented
I still content that total depravity is not what is meant by that passage you quote. If God meant total depravity then why doesn't he say so? It's really pretty simple.

Besides that you seek to exclude Mormons from "orthodoxy" (another non-biblical term) for a differing view on so called "total depravity" is ridiculous. Arminian and Calvinist Evangelicals disagree wholeheartily on the Doctrine of Total Depravity. So are Arminian Evangelical, Pentacostals, Methodist and some Baptists also outside of your definition of orthodoxy for rejecting total depravity or is it only the Mormons?

The word orthodoxy, from the Greek ortho ('right', 'correct') and doxa ('thought', 'teaching', 'glorification'), is typically used to refer to the correct worship or the correct theological and doctrinal observance of religion, as determined by some overseeing body.

The notion that God is "wholly man and wholly human" is also borrowed from Greek Philosophy. It was in fact considered a heresy outside of "orthodoxy" at one time. It is important to use the exact words of the Bible because Doctrinal innacuracies such as this have been substituted for the actual Biblical words.

Clement's descriptions of God as "wholly" was taken verbatim from Xenophanes a Greek secularist philosopher (probably a liberal too). To understand the underlying theology of the Creeds we have to turn not to the bible text but to earlier Greek Philosophers. (homouosis, ex-nihilo,)

The Creed itself referenced the Greek version of the material world in its explanation and reference to the substance of God.

"not made, being of one substance with the Father" also the reference to incarnate

or that he is of a different substance or essence [from the Father] or that he is a creature, or subject to change or conversion--all that so say, the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes them.

[As an aside to our discussion on the material essence of God - What is your opinion of the last phrase of the Creed which many protestants like to leave out?)

Here is a further discussion of how Greek Liberals polluted God's Word.

Restoring_the_Ancient_Church - Chapter 3 - The Doctrine of God and the Nature of Man

Specifically, the phrase, "of one substance or essence," expresses a concept that was adopted and adapted from contemporary Greek philosophy, but was foreign to the thought of the original Christianity. This concept may seem strange to the modern reader because Greek philosophy is no longer the predominant system of thought, although it has remained the basis of many aspects of mainstream Christian theology even to the present time. At the time the Nicene Creed was adopted, the predominant philosophy was a hodgepodge of ideas, mostly based on Neoplatonism and a few other schools of thought. These schools, in turn, largely based their ideas on the thought of a few earlier philosophers, notably Plato, Empedocles and Xenophanes. A quick summary of how these philosophers viewed God should make the language of the Nicene Creed clear to the reader. (Although the Christians modified the terminology of the philosophers to fit their purposes, one still cannot make sense of their language without reference to these Hellenistic ideas.)15

There are many Chritian Father's who reject your view of "orthodoxy" including Justin martyr, Origen, Hipollytus etc. Are they Christian?

189 posted on 07/06/2007 8:01:12 AM PDT by Rameumptom (Gen X= they killed 1 in 4 of us)
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