Replies

I Said: Show me something that is sacred but not secret
You Said: The sacrament: Baptism, Penance/Reconciliation, Eucharist (The Blessed Sacrament), Confirmation,Matrimony, Holy Orders, Extremunction or Anointing of the Sick.
People make light of these things all the time, thus they are not held sacred.

You Said: Sacred and secret are not interdependent.
Matt. 7:6

I Said: If you take the discussions, we explain everything that goes on…
You Said: Can you provide a link to this explanation?
No, the discussions are interactive, and the missionaries answer YOUR questions, it's not a list. For the full doctrine of what is in the Endowment ceremony see Doctrine and Covenants And The Book of Abraham (Abr.)

I know you won't be satisfied by that, but there is so much there, and you agree to abide by the laws set forth in the Bible, and the D&C, so they are completely coved there. IF I left something out you'd say I was hiding it, so read the whole D&C and the book of Abraham and ask away, all the doctrine we teach in the temple is there, I just am no0t allowed to point it out to you as such.

I Said: when you go for the first time, they give you a class, and it's before you commit to anything more than keep what they say in the class to yourself.

You Said: I can provide you with materials for the classes preparing for the rite of Christian Initiation (for confirmation in my Church), with the study materials, manuals, as well as the creeds required.

Neat, I can direct you to Endowed from on High: Temple Preparation Seminar Teacher’s Manual
It's the hand book for the class the church recommends you take before you enter the temple, it was up on our web site, (I searched for Temple preparation). I Said: it's sacred.

You Said: So is Confirmation.

You are perfectly welcome to come to a Mormon Baptism, and Confirmation, no recommend required. You can even attend a Sacrament meeting without a recommend (you will not be expected / allowed to partake of the sacrament, or Eucharist)

I Said: Some parts of the Rite are very personal..

You Said: That's ok. Parts of Confession are extremely personal. I can give you information on what specific types of personal information this involves. Perhaps you could do the same?

I already have,, but lets go over it again, you covent to God to keep his commandments, the covenants cover the Bible, the D&C, and the Covenant with Abraham in the Book of Abraham. We covenant with God not to reveal the sacred things he teaches us there outside the temple, we are instructed in ways to recognize revelation from God tell true messengers from fakers, we are taught about our potential, and all this is in the D&C and the book of Abraham, so go and read them if you want to know what we do in the temple.

I Said: And the Doctrines taught in the Temple are published in the D&C, and book of Abraham. There are rites performed in the temple that are not to be spoken of anywhere else. They are not doctrine, they are rites.

You Said: I understand that, believe me. Perhaps you could reveal whether it involves oaths and/or whether it involves the invoking of special words?

LOL! It's a ritual, of course you say the same phrases every time, if it changed all the time it'd be a conversation, but not a ritual.

Special Words, you mean like God Elohem, angels Adam Michael and stuff? yes we use words not in normal every day use on the streets, but then, I don't usually talk about creation or to God on the street.

I Said: Tell me, do you know every thing that goes on in a nunnery?

You Said: Bordering on non-sequitor. I know the rites; I'm not privy to the privy.

Yes, but you did not answer if it bothered you, and your refusal to answer is an interesting development.

I Said: We never said we were orthodox

You Said: I understand. In our discussion, I'm avoiding arguments over Christianity and trying to communicate the problem of comparative religious discussions which involve secret rites.

Then why not instead read the D&C and th book of Abraham and discuss those, you will cover the same territory, but not be trying to get a Mormons to confirm or deny if they use the word God in the temple (yes we do, but it's in addressing him, not swearing by his name)

You Said: Let me end with an example, an outrageous one to prove a point: Say there was a religion that held a sacred secret rite. Call it "The Rite of Initiation of the Bear". This religion says the rite follows its doctrine of the sanctity of animal life and that in this rite a bear is specially blessed before God to show the church's reverence for God's gift of all animals.

You know the punch line: The bear is bathed and annointed, incensed, blessed and... sacraficed.

There is no blood spilt in the temple, the only sacrifice is a broken heart and a contrite spirit, Jesus has fulfilled the law of sacrifice in the Bible by the shedding of his own blood.

You Said: Please know I mean nothing of the sort goes on in the LDS; it's only to illustrate that rites and doctrine do go together - they are key aspects of what a church believes and how it illustrates and further defines its beliefs.

So it would be OK if the bear was not sacrificed? What if there was on anointing?
And what in the name of mike does a bear have to do with Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation (which is the focus of the Temple ceremony), but that's in the D&C, so you knew that, right?

You Said: Now there are benefits to secrets, beside the obvious of keeping something one wishes others not to know from them. Secrets also build unity and loyalty. So I see their advantage.

Not to mention God commanded it (you guys are missing the only point here BTW)

You Said: In religion, I believe their dangers and disadvantages outweigh their usefulness.

I'll relay your misgivings to God the next time I'm in the temple, come to think of it, just tell him yourself in a prayer, then he'll know better than I do who you are and what you need.

You Said: You, of course, have another view and other reasons why LDS must keep them secret. We may just have to disagree as I think I have run out of arguments for my position.

Yep, well let's talk about my perspective for a moment, if you believe (as I do) that God commanded you not to tell the ceremonies outside the temple, what could make you do it? I have tried to be as forthcoming as I can be, but what you want is for me to disclose that which I promised God I would not reveal and simply put well, no.

I really have tried to be helpful, the information is there on our web site, you don't have to wonder, go read.

May God be with you, FRiend

I understand your perspective. I've tried to stick to the point: secret rites prohibit discussion of comparative religious topics. If that's unavoidable in LDS then so be it.

I think we may well be misunderstanding each other. At least I feel misunderstood in some of my answers. And I think I may be misunderstanding you as well.

I read the manual and it was helpful, thank you. Can you help me out with this part of our discussion?

What exactly are we talking about that is a secret rite? You said baptism, Eucharist, etc are not secret, so what is it exactly we are talking about here?

Is the secret part in the Ordinances and Covenants? These seem to be spelled out in the manual - are they basically the same only with different presentation and wording?

Or, alternatively, is the secret part found here:

In a symbolic way, the teachings and rituals of the temple take us on an upward journey toward eternal life, ending with a symbolic entrance into the presence of God. The characters depicted, the physical setting, the clothing worn, the signs given, and all the events covered in the temple are symbolic. When they are understood, they will help each person recognize truth and grow spiritually.

You say:

all this is in the D&C and the book of Abraham, so go and read them if you want to know what we do in the temple.

... but preface it with:

We covenant with God not to reveal the sacred things he teaches us there outside the temple..

Which, I hope you can imagine confuses me quite a bit.

So, if you could clarify for me what exactly the nature of the secret rite is. By this I mean what's it called, is it like a church service for members only? Is it a regular rite? Who presides? Is it a group meeting. Is what must be kept secret comprised of special teachings by a church leader or a ritual that is repeated? Is this a one time initiation, learning or an ongoing thing.

I'm afraid I'm thoroughly confused what we're talking about and apologize for not clearing it up sooner.