Posted on 07/04/2007 6:47:22 AM PDT by NYer
You said:
“Catholics jump on John 6 to establish the authenticity of the Eucharist as the literal flesh and blood of Jesus, but back away from John 6 regarding its sufficiency for salvation and even its necessity for salvation.”
I don’t know where you get this idea. Catholics have always believed in the Holy Eucharist as the source and summit of Grace, because we receive Him into ourselves. Because Jesus is the Paschal Lamb, He is required to be consumed in order for us to enter into the New Covenant with God. (see St. Paul’s teaching in 1 Corinthians 5:7-8)
Jesus makes it quite clear in John 6:
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. (vs. 47-48)
Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (vs. 49-51)
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. (vs. 53)
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (vs. 54)
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. (vs. 55-56)
As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. (vs. 57)
This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. (vs. 58)
In the above verses, Jesus says seven times that if we eat Him, we will live in Him now and/or have everlasting life later. It can’t be any clearer than that.
You also said: “I agree with you that taking the Catholic Eucharist is neither necessary nor sufficient for salvation.” I most assuredly did NOT say that and I don’t appreciate your attributing something to me that is entirely false!
If you are going to post on what the Catholic Church believes, I would respectfully request that you read the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” so that you can post accurate facts. Please do not make up things about Catholic beliefs.
xzins:
What is your point? You keep asking this same question over and over of any Catholic you post to. Don’t you know the answer? Or is this just some kind of intro to an argument?
I will take your question at face value. The answer is that of course God is real. You are the one who has a problem with the concept that God can be a spirit and be real at the same time. Otherwise, you wouldn’t keep asking this same question over and over again on every Catholic thread.
***Are you suggesting that we are to see and believe that the wine is His real blood and the wafer is His actual flesh, and that is the discernment spoken of???***
Yes, exactly! You understand!
I have no problem with persons and things spiritual being real.
It is, therefore, appropriate to consider that when one reads Jesus’ words about eating His flesh and drinking His blood. He said about them, “These words are SPIRIT and they are life.”
Spirit does NOT equal symbolic. You yourself said that Spirit is REAL.
His body is REAL food. His presence is SPIRITUAL based on His own words. Therefore, He can say, “This IS my body.” and He can be speaking of a REALITY.....a Spiritual Reality.
Therefore, transubstantial is an unnecessary addition. Spiritual ALREADY is real.
So, as far as the “catholic” being the only Christian Church at one time: one half of it was. You ought to know that...
Jesus said that we must believe on Him for salvation, but He also said, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:21-23 Just because you believe on Him, doesn’t mean you are saved.
Salvation is not assured, as St. Paul tells us: “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” Philippians 2:12
You wrote: “It DOESN’T say that eternal life may be available at some time if we endure to the end of our life” Your statement is not true. Scripture most certainly DOES say that we must endure to the end. These are the words of Jesus:
“And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.” Matthew 10:22
“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Matthew 24:13
“And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Mark 13:13
You wrote: “I believe the scripture” Good. I know that you will believe the verses above, and will thus change your opinion.
Jesus said his “words” are “spirit.” He didn’t say His “body” was “spirit.” He said His body was “flesh.” Yes, His body is a spiritual reality, but it is also a literal reality. Transubstantiation is how it happens, not an unneccesary addition.
Since Jesus also is "spirit", his spiritual presence at the communion is as "real" as it gets.
If his physical body were present, then he would have to be literally torn limb from limb on a daily basis to accommodate all the masses that are performed. To believe that Christ is "physically" present at the Eucharist is to assume that his physical body is not "real".
In other words, Christ's "real" physical presence in the Eucharist would only be possible if his physical body were not "real".
Since his physical body is "real", his presence in the Eucharist is "spiritual".
Carry on.
See #148.
Jesus is REAL. Spirit is REAL. His body is REAL food. His words were: Eat my flesh and drink my blood.
He explained by saying: “These words are Spirit...”
Therefore, he CAN say “This IS my body.”
And he said to them, “How many loaves have you? Go and see.” And when they had found out, they said, “Five, and two fish.”
39 Then he commanded them all to sit down by companies upon the green grass.
40 So they sat down in groups, by hundreds and by fifties.
41 And taking the five loaves and the two fish he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and broke the loaves, and gave them to the disciples to set before the people; and he divided the two fish among them all.
42 And they all ate and were satisfied.
43 And they took up twelve baskets full of broken pieces and of the fish.
44 And those who ate the loaves were five thousand men.
Does Jesus divide himself into 5000 separate bodies.
Is the "whole" body of Christ present in each wafer, or just an eyelash in one and a fingernail clipping in another?
Matthew 7:6
Our God is infinite
Good point.
“Before receiving Holy Communion” prayer by Saint John Chrysostom
Oh Lord, I believe and I profess that You are the true Christ, the Son of the living God that came to this world to save sinners, of which I am the first. Accept me as a participant in your Mystical Supper, Oh Son of God.
I will not reveal your mystery to your enemies, nor will I give You a kiss as did Judas, but as the good thief, I recognize You.
Remember me Oh Lord when you come to your Kingdom. Remember, Oh Master, when You come to your Kingdom. Remember me, Oh Holy One, when You come to your Kingdom.
That my participation in your Holy Mysteries, Oh Lord, may not be my judgment and condemnation, but to heal my soul and my body.
Oh Lord, I also believe and profess that I am about to receive what is truly your Most Precious Body and vivifying Blood, of which I ask You to make me worthy to receive, for the remission of all my sins and eternal life. Amen.
Oh Lord, be merciful with me, a sinner.
Oh Lord, cleanse me from my sins and have mercy on me.
Oh Lord, forgive me, because I have sinned innumerable times.
Ok. Is Christ's body the same physical body (composed of the dust of the earth) that he was crucified in?
Or is it some kind of magical/mystical body that is capable of filling the whole universe?
What is it with you people thinking Catholics don’t believe the Holy Spirit and God the Father are “real?”
Your vision of Christ and His physical body is very limited, and does not take into account that He can be miraculously present (He is God, after all, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity). That is a definition of miraculous - it is a mystery! This fact is proved in these verses from John 20: “Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.” (vs. 19) and “And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.” (vs. 26) John is careful to explain that the doors were shut, but Jesus appeared in the midst of them. John is also careful to explain that Jesus’ body, although Resurrected, is the same body as the one at the Crucifixion because Jesus told Thomas to put his hands in His side and hands: “Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.” (vs. 27) If Jesus’ Resurrected body can appear although the doors are closed, and still bear the wounds of His Crucifixion, He can be present body, blood, soul, and divinity in Holy Communion at Mass.
Do you not believe that Jesus Christ resurrected and has a Glorified body?
Jesus truly is present, however, the notion that the bread is flesh is belied by the fact that our pre-crucifixion Jesus was holding the bread that He had broken when He said, "This is my body broken for you."
The "presence" must be interpreted as spiritual and not as transsubstantial.
"But spiritual is not 'real'." some will say. However, "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and in Truth."
For those who believe "spiritual" is not real, I suppose they're saying that God, who is Spirit, is not real.
Humm, so the disciples who "Walked with Him no more" because of His Bread of Life discourse were either too stupid to understand the nuances of Christs words, and He let them go, deceived, OR they knew that He was not speaking metaphorically and rejected the concept and Christ choosing to walk another path, exercising their free will to reject eternal life, the free gift offered, not forced.
In youre scenario, God is a deceiver of souls, in the Catholic understanding, people damn themselves by not trusting in the Lord.
<<<”I would be amazed if the divorce rate in the catholic church is significantly lower than say the southern baptist”>>>
I would think the procedure for divorce would enhance a Protestant denomination’s approval of divorce. A parish Catholic parish priest has little to say about a man or woman’s request for divorce (annulment). All attempts at breaking up a marriage is handled at the Diocesan level. Of course this is in a annulment request. Civil divorce is separate and that is where most Catholics get their legal separation.
The procedure through the Catholic Church is complicated but protestant denominations for the most part do not have the tiers of religious and have their determination is at a local parish with little or no critique.
On a one on one basis the Catholic Church would have less annulments as compared to Protestant divorce. Of course as far as civil suits,they could be compared.
As far as pedophilia, it is understood that those priests are/were homosexual. A Hofstra University researcher Charol Shakeshaft made a study with the following results:
A federal report said 422,000 California public-school students would be victims before graduation — a number that dwarfs the state’s entire Catholic-school enrollment of 143,000.
Her comment was: “[T]hink the Catholic Church has a problem?” she said. “The physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests.”
There is much more in the report including MSM down playing the public school problems but playing up Catholic priests.
In actuality, wayward clergy have very little to do with society’s divorce rate
Are you saying that his body is not the same one he took into heaven when he rose from the grave?
What did he do with that one?
If his glorified body is not the same physical body that he took to heaven, then how can you claim that there is a "physical" presence in the Eucharist? If his body is now some kind of glorified spiritual body instead of the actual body (composed of the dust of the earth) that he was crucified in, then his physical presence at the Eucharist would not be a real physical presence.
So what are you eating? A spiritual body? Or the body that Christ was crucified in?
And if it is the physical body, do you eat the whole body at each mass or just a fingernail clipping or an eyelash one week and a toenail or an earlobe the next?
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