How does that work out on your end in terms of works?
We believe in the Real Presence, but we reject the idea that "transubstantiation" explains the mode how it happens. After all, a sacrament means mystery.
IMO, Latin understanding puts control of the exact moment in the hands of the Priest, while on your end it happens, but you don't know exactly when. Correct?
Because of the article that began this thread, I looked into the Assyrian Church a bit more & came across more about the Latin "acceptance" of one of the forms used by the Assyrians. Latins claimed all of the elements necessary were there, though the form was rough & spread out.
Something else came up in one of the sources that I came across having to do with leavening. They claim to use a leavening that's been passed down (I think they said since the time of the Apostles) for quite sometime. They said the Latin Church & Eastern Orthodox are different in this area. Is that true, you use a leavened bread?
We believe the Blessed Ever-Virgin Mary lived a life without sin because she chose to, not because she was ontologically different from us. In other words, her faith and love for God was much greater than that of any other human being.
I can buy that, though from my end, I'd have to believe she had extra help. Love is a self replicating thing, where the more you give, the more you get & visa versa.
We believe in particular judgment immediately after death and an interim period for the souls before the Last Judgment. We also pray for the souls of our departed and commemorate them for the benefit of their separated state. We do not think they are being "roasted" (purified) in the Purgatory, but we do admit that souls by themselves were not how God created us and souls separated from bodies are in an unnatural state which may be of great discomfort, which is relieved by prayers and commemorative services.
You caught me in the middle of a letter to the Pastor who's teaching my catechism class. After decades of separation I've picked up some heterodox beliefs in the area of the Creation. I can't help but see created in the past tense. Mankind was created on the sixth day. Adam was *formed* at some point after. I've no idea where we were until we're born. But, Scripture doesn't say that creation is an ongoing thing & while our bodies here on earth are made up or formed out of it's elements, we're more than our physical bodies.
Anyway, if you can give me direction about where y'all get your understanding about the end of life, afterlife, it might be very helpful to me.
We accept the Pope as the elder bishop; several ecumenical councils stated so. We disagree on the extent of his jurisdiction over other bishops and especially patriarchs. We do not consider him infallible except when he expresses the decisions of the Ecumenical Councils, and not on his own, or, worse, by circumventing them (such as was the case of BEV Mary's Immaculate Conception dogma).
First full council after reconciliation looks to be a doozy...
So, you are right that the Latins do not really believe anything we don't believe, it's how and why they believe it that we find much disagreement with them.
Thing is, their positions are dogma & dogma can never be revoked.
How does that work out on your end in terms of works?
Works are an integral part of faith. Charity, alms giving...but that is not what saves us. Attaining the likeness of Christ, by following Him, by imitating Him, by living the faith, does. Recapturing the likeness of God we lost by the Fall is salvation.
As far as grace is concerned, it represents God's uncreated energies. We can participate in them, but we can never share His essence.
The Orthodox Church also teaches the original Christian doctrine of ransom redemption.
IMO, Latin understanding puts control of the exact moment in the hands of the Priest, while on your end it happens, but you don't know exactly when. Correct?
The Old or Traditional Latin Mass (sometimes erroneously called "Tridentine"), which has been in use from the 7th century until 1964, does not have a clear epiclesis. Pope Gregory I, is the creator of the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM), aka Mass of Ages. The change involved an active process of deconstructing the previous (Antiochean, distinctly Eastern) liturgy in Latin up to the 5th century, and re-canonizing it into something new. The process included removal of the epiclesis along with other prayers, as well as rearranged the order of prayers relative to the beginning and end of the Latin Mass.
Those who know TLM will tell you that the epiclesis is still there but does not use the word Spirit; rather it uses the word God. I believe the Latins hold that the change happens when the priest raises the host and the cup. The Orthodox make no claim as to when the change takes place; we just know that it does at one point.
(Priest in a low voice) Once again we offer to You this spiritual worship without the shedding of blood, and we ask, pray, and entreat You: send down Your Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here presented.
And make this bread the precious Body of Your Christ.
- (He blesses the holy Bread)
- Deacon (in a low voice): Amen.
- Priest (in a low voice): And that which is in this cup the precious Blood of Your Christ.
- (He blesses the holy Cup.)
- Deacon (in a low voice): Amen.
- Priest (in a low voice): Changing them by Your Holy Spirit.
- (He blesses them both.)
- Deacon (in a low voice): Amen. Amen. Amen.
As you can tell, the prayers are said in low voice while the choir is chanting. Some Orthodox Churches (especially American) read these prayers aloud and the congregation gestures by deep bows, metanias (bowing down to touch the floor) or even with full prostrations, the "moment" immediately after the triple Amen as if that was the point of change, but there is nothing in the Orthodox theology, as far as I could find, that claims such a thing; it's an entirely American innovation, probably brought in through Protestant converts, and is very unorthodox as far as I am concerned.
Because of the article that began this thread, I looked into the Assyrian Church a bit more & came across more about the Latin "acceptance" of one of the forms used by the Assyrians. Latins claimed all of the elements necessary were there, though the form was rough & spread out.
But it doesn't have the part of the Mystical (aka "Last") Supper where Christ says "Take, eat..."! How can it have "all the elements?" Beside this Nestorian church denies that BEV Mary is the Mother of God.
They said the Latin Church & Eastern Orthodox are different in this area. Is that true, you use a leavened bread?
Yes.
I can buy that, though from my end, I'd have to believe she had extra help.
Then she is not one of us. We cannot look at her as our model. Her sainthood is then "assisted."
I can't help but see created in the past tense. Mankind was created on the sixth day. Adam was *formed* at some point after. I've no idea where we were until we're born.
The teaching of the pre-existence of the souls was a distinctly Gnostic teaching. Origen was specifically condmend by one of the earlier Councils for having taught pre-existence of the souls. The Church has two beliefs visavis the souls, neither one is dogmatic, but the Church steadfastly rejects pre-existence of the souls.
Adam's soul was created when Adam was fashioned out of clay. Eve god Adam's soul because it was the "flesh of his flesh." They had two sons who received their life and so on...Eastern Churches tend to follow this belief (life is propagated from one generation to another, all being the basic life or soul given to Adam). Such belief explains our tendency to sin, as we inherit Adam's fallen nature (his genes and his soul). The other side of the church (mostly western) believe that God creates each and everyone's souls at the moment of conception. This doctrine does not explain why we are born with corrupt will, as surely God doesn't create a defective soul.
I tend to believe the first. God's creation is a finished act. Therefore everything He set out to create has been created including the human soul, of which we all share.
As to where we were before we were born the answer is we didn't exist. The life of our parents was passed on to us, and they inherited it from their parents and so all the way back to Adam and Eve.
Anyway, if you can give me direction about where y'all get your understanding about the end of life, afterlife, it might be very helpful to me.
The short of it: all men are destined to die once (Heb 9:27), followed by a (particular) judgment. We believe the essence of the particular judgment is no different than the essence of the Last Judgment: we are judged (based on our deeds) to be in eternal bliss or damnation, which will take place after the Last Judgment.
I would like recommend a searchable site called Orthodoxinfo.com and Orthodox Catechism by Archbishop Alfeyev at Mystery of faith
First full council after reconciliation looks to be a doozy...
How so?
Thing is, their positions are dogma & dogma can never be revoked.
True. But dogma may express the same faith even if worded differently or even less than perfectly. There is plenty of room left.