Posted on 06/24/2007 12:58:20 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
The confessional box was a” late innovation, occurring right around the time of the Council of Trent, which paralyzed the Roman Church for over four centuries. It was a technological fix to make solicitation more difficult — a problem that it may actually have made worse, by eliminating possible witnesses. And as the black box is an undeniably effective psychological tool to put the fear of God into penitents, it undoubtedly increased the pressure on them, too.”
History of Sacerdotal Celibacy within the Christian Church
I did go to Google and searched Protestant denominations.
On the second page,as of ten minutes ago there was a reference titled "How Many Protestant Denominations Are There?the 20000/30000." The article is by a Catholic and I believe comes from "Catholic Answers". I believe you will find his answer quite fair and balanced and it does point out contrary views.
It appears that the original info came from the Christian World Encyclopedia,that was written by a man name Barrett and published by Oxford Press. It was fraught with misinformation due to misunderstandings and misapplication of some facts. However,it does seem to be a source document to the figures.
The information that I had found when the subject was discussed on the Neverending thread was from a Christian firm that had been commissioned in about 2000 to provide data. I just can't even figure out how to access it.
My position on the subject is that there are many,many Christian and quasi Christian denominations but I think it's pretty hairsplitting and time wasting to to dwell on the splintering except to caution that the tendency to split off and start new churches is a cause for concern because much time is wasted arguing among believers that serve only Antichrists and work against us all being One with Christ.
Needless to say as a Catholic I see the beauty of the Oneness of one Church under the Vicar of Christ on earth. He saves me a lot of grief by speaking for me on matters of dogma,faith and morals and working from that foundation,I am totally free to work on problems in my family,neighborhood,community and the world without having to spend much time on wondering what Jesus would do,I know. On matters of dogma,faith and morals,I follow the priests,who follow the bishops,who follow the Pope,who follows Christ. And,if I am concerned that a priest or bishop is a liar and a hypocrite,I look at what Christ said,how the Popes have followed through the years and have no compunction about pointing out to the non following clergy and anyone involved how far the offender has strayed.
I am sorry I couldn't give you the name of the group that provided the information in 2000,hope this helps.
Thank you. It's good to be back, albeit slow going for now.
where in scripture does Jesus say they could pass on any of the gifts given for the building of the church
In Matt. 10:1,40 - Jesus declares to His apostles, "he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me." Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world.
In Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - the apostles are given Christ's authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. God raises up humanity in Christ by exalting his chosen leaders and endowing them with the authority and grace they need to bring about the conversion of all. Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism).
The first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. (Acts 1:15-26)
Even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. (Acts 9:17-19)
One Catholic Church? I have but three words to refute that claim:
Roger Michael Mahony.
If your idea of "one church" is one that allows this clown to preside as a Cardinal, then you're welcome to it, to him, and to all who share the Communion cup with him.
As to that other matter, I've never actually seen a Catholic-sourced list naming each and every one of the 33,000 (or 30,000, or 36,000, or 40,000, or 1,000,000+, or whatever number Catholics decide to pull out of their mitres at any given moment) Protestant denominations that Catholics claim are out there. Can you provide one for us? Or is this one of those times where the truthfulness or accuracy of the accusation shouldn't be questioned, because it's the seriousness of the charge that matters here?
Does your list of Protestant denominations include the Rastafarians?
I think the same way as you do with the Evangelicals/Protestants when I watch Jesus Camp. Is that representative of your religion??????????
I'm not a member of the denomination depicted in "Jesus Camp."
However nothing in that presentation shows children at risk, physically or sexually, from any church member or leader.
Unlike in the RCC (of which you are a member I presume) as depicted in the documentary, "Deliver Us From Evil."
If you were to watch "Deliver Us From Evil," you'd realize the problem of predatory priests and a complicit clergy is systemic to the RCC. And this cancer flourishes in part because of the fictitious though widely-held belief in the RCC that priests are actually more than men, even "another Christ," according to the following RCC priest...
Yet, in truth Scripture tells us that with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, all Christians became part of the "priesthood of believers;" we are "all one in Christ Jesus."
Knock it off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
According to God's word, you and I have been commissioned with a task...
Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak." -- Ephesians 6:13-20"Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
I would also add to your comment by asking NYer if our Catholic friends would say they are “one” with gay Catholics, pro-abortion Catholics, women priest Catholics, Catholics that incorporate Hindu worship practices in their Mass, etc. Our Catholic friends would like to claim they are one when nothing could be further from the truth.
For the past 10 years, our parish has produced 4 priests, one cloistered nun, and 2 seminarians. There is no competition from any parish anywhere in this diocese and beyond.
Is this all luck, co-incidence, hard work, or something else?
For one thing, the confession line during the Tridentine Mass is always long and overwhelming, stretching far beyond Communion time. There is no magic to it, when a priest is available in the confessional (especially during Mass), people go when they see others go. Young and old, built or crippled, they are all in line for the second most important sacrament after baptism, for rebirth of the soul.
Truly, IMHO, the length of the confession line is the EKG strip of the spiritual heart of a parish. This litmus test has never failed everywhere I went.
It’s not too late, good priests can bring people back to spiritual health, via the confession. But they must be willing to work at it.
In Matt. 10:1,40 - Jesus declares to His apostles, "he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me." Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world.
The key is it was given to the apostles ,but they were never told they had the ability or authority to give it to others
In Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - the apostles are given Christ's authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. God raises up humanity in Christ by exalting his chosen leaders and endowing them with the authority and grace they need to bring about the conversion of all. Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism).
Nowhere does Christ tell them they have the ability or authority to pass on the gifts given to them for the purpose of the birth of the new church.
Protestants believe Christ to be the central authority and the Bible the handbook / blueprint He left behind.
Actually there is no more "confusion" in Protestantism than in Catholicism IMHO
The first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. (Acts 1:15-26)
The only problem with using this as your model is that we have no scriptural evidence to support this act.Peter was known to be rash and run ahead of himself.
He did this without having any authority given to him to pick a replacement.
We never hear of Matthias again in scripture.Whereas Gods selected replacement wrote most of the NT and was the churches chief catechist.
That is the difference between the plan of men and the plan of God
The laying on of hands was a Jewish custom for the passing on of authority
In the NT church it was seen as the passing on of spiritual gifts through the Baptism of the Holy Spirit ( stirring up the gifts that are in thee)
God gave the early church many gifts and responsibilities but no where does Christ say those gifts were theirs to pass on where they willed
The method used by the author was to count every ecclesiastically independent group as a ‘separate’ religion.
Because of that every independent Baptist church is counted as a separate religion,every non denominational church is counted as a separate religion,the various Presbyterian denominations are counted as separate religions
Having a separate dilibperastive or leadership body does not make a different religion The numbers are not reliable nor meaningful. In reality Evangelical Protestants hold more doctrine in common than most individual Catholics:)
As NYer and I have said many times, these people are not really Catholics.
They are Catholics in name only. (CINO)
Much like you would call a Republican who always votes with the dimocrats a RINO.
I bet you have 24/7 Adoration or a lot of people saying daily Rosaries for vocations. Let me know which it is.
Considering that your own U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops says otherwise, it's pretty easy to decide who has the more authoritative voice and definition in this matter. They're Catholics. If they weren't, you'd deny them a place at the altar.
But let me get this straight - "true" Catholic laypeople are allowed to use doctrine, behavior, and association to screen out all the undesirable but still in full Communion with Rome elements, so as to claim, as laypeople mind you, what constitutes the true "one Catholic church"....
..and these same armchair, amateur apologists employ a fuzzy, catch-all "not Catholic and not Orthodox" rule unrelated to doctrine, behavior or association to lump together a bunch of disparate unrelated groups, labeling the entire group as "Protestant", and then libeling that entire group - holding all accountable for the actions, beliefs, and associations of the worst of the worst of the worst?
**Considering that your own U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops says otherwise, **
I have no idea what you are talking about here.
If it is the idea that we love the sinner, but hate the sin, that would be true.
Can you give me an URL for the USCCB page from which you are quoting?
That’s hardly a USCCB url.
Since you disagree with the number "33,000" quote, I am asking you to provide us with a number .... and a source ... for the Protestant denominations worldwide.
By giving Peter the keys of authority (Matt. 16:19), Jesus appointed Peter as the chief steward over His earthly kingdom (cf. Isaiah. 22:19-22). Jesus also charged Peter to be the source of strength for the rest of the apostles (Luke 22:32) and the earthly shepherd of Jesus' flock (John 21:15-17). Jesus further gave Peter, and the apostles and elders in union with him, the power to bind and loose in heaven what they bound and loosed on earth. (Matt. 16:19; 18:18). This teaching authority did not die with Peter and the apostles, but was transferred to future bishops through the laying on of hands (e.g., Acts 1:20; 6:6; 13:3; 8:18; 9:17; 1 Tim. 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim. 1:6).
This gift of the Holy Spirit, through the laying on of hands in ordination, was something Paul instructed Timothy to pass on in the future. Part of his duty as a bishop-evangelist was to ordain elders in different congregations. He tells Timothy he must exercise this ministry carefully, lest he ordain a priest unworthy of the office. In 1 Timothy 5:19-22 he tells the young evangelist:
"Never admit any charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. . . . Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, nor participate in another man's sins; keep yourself pure."
Paul tells Timothy not to lay hands on an elder too quickly; don't ordain him until he has been tested and shown to be of excellent character. Otherwise Timothy will share in his sins.
Timothy, as well as Titus and other early evangelist-bishops, carried out this ministry of ordaining priests, and the result is what we have today in the Catholic Church: a sacramental priesthood with a chain of ordinations running straight back to the first century, whose links can be clearly documented from Church history.
First you need to document where you obtained your "33,000" number to begin with. Let's be fair - it's not my assertion to prove, it's yours. Only you can document where you got the number from. I would think you'd stand behind your source! If you really expect me to do your homework for you, and prove your own Prot-bashing argument against me, you're going to have to come up with some convincing reasons for me to do so. Quality work doesn't come cheap, you know.
Tell you want, though - I'm up to the challenge, and I'll do it, providing you do me a small favor quid-pro-quo and document all the reasons why you think the Reformation was both necessary and justified. After all, you'd probably dispute such a claim anyway, so it would really help us Protestants out if you'd document for us all the reasons why the Catholic Church needed reforming, both ecclesiastically and doctrinally. That's my price, if you honestly expect me to help you with your argument.
The 33k figure refers to Christians in general. If anyone here has a copy of the WCE, perhaps they'd be kind enough to share the exact figure for Protestants.
Article below is heavily edited due to length:
http://www.adherents.com/misc/WCE.html
World Christian Encyclopedia
RICHMOND, Va. -- When Britain's Royal Aircraft Establishment reassigned David B. Barrett from airplane design to missiles and warheads in 1952, it became a turning point -- and not just for him.
The aeronautical engineer quit to train for the Church of England priesthood, expressing hope the church could make use of his mathematics expertise and pioneering computer work.
"Forget science completely," his bishop advised. But Barrett could not.
Since adding a religion doctorate from Columbia University to his technical background, he has spent 40 years systematizing information on world religions, a calling he discovered while assigned as an Anglican missionary in Africa.
Now 73, Barrett recently culminated his oddly remarkable career with publication of the second edition of his global accounting of faiths and the faithful -- trends, details and his best estimated count of believers of all religions in each of 238 nations and territories.
Never has there been such a thorough reference as the two large volumes, running 1,699 pages, of the World Christian Encyclopedia, published by Oxford University Press.
Barrett has doggedly visited most of the lands in person, collecting raw material, including national census figures and United Nations data, and recruiting the 444 specialists who feed him material. Among them: Vatican missions librarian Willi Henkel and editor J. Gordon Melton of the Encyclopedia of American Religions.
Barrett's encyclopedia sought to count each human being in each religion and religious subcategory in each country as of 1900, 1970, 1990, 1995 and 2000, with projections to 2025.
The 2001 edition, successor to his 1983 first edition, which took a decade to compile, identifies 10,000 distinct religions, of which 150 have 1 million or more followers. Within Christianity, he counts 33,830 denominations.
Barrett also calculates religious populations for the Encyclopedia Britannica Book of the Year, standard estimates that are used in turn by the World Almanac and innumerable journalists.
Such numbers are always debatable, but they're the best available. "We don't really have any rivals," Barrett says. "That's the problem."
Why the title World Christian Encyclopedia, when it covers faith groups from Afghan Zoroastrians (304,000) to Zimbabwean animists (3.52 million)? Though Barrett says he publishes factual, unbiased data, he readily acknowledges it has a purpose: to serve as an informational undergirding for Christian missionary work.
"I don't have the gift of evangelism through personality. I don't have the gift of traditional preaching," explains the soft-spoken Barrett.
Is he a missionary, then? "Certainly, but not the shouter on the street."
He calls his blend of religion and science "missiometrics."
Barrett's encyclopedia shows immense global shifts between 1900 and 2000 in various faiths' shares of the global population. Though Christianity became the first truly universal religion in terms of geography and remained the biggest, it lost a bit of market share. Second-ranking Islam expanded considerably and Hinduism somewhat, while Buddhism declined. Chinese and other folk faiths dropped precipitously, as did Judaism.
...
Today, Barrett and his tiny staff work in a Presbyterian church basement in Richmond. They're producing a CD-ROM version of the findings, as well as analytical articles. It's a long way from his beginnings.
A one-time nonbeliever, Barrett made a born-again Christian commitment as a Cambridge University undergraduate.
A year later, he says, "I woke up in the middle of the night and became convinced that Christ was present. I can't explain it. I heard Christ say, 'You ought to go to the ends of the world.' "
His ordination after years in science let him respond to this dramatic missionary call.
...
But Barrett prizes independence so he later shifted to an independent research agency, Global Evangelization Movement. Still an Anglican missionary, Barrett continued to get approval for his work from the Church Missionary Society in London. A young U.S. Presbyterian layman, Todd M. Johnson, signed on in 1989 as co-editor.
...
Barrett and Johnson call themselves Charismatic, part of the Holy Spirit movement in old-line denominations, and their estimate that the related Pentecostal and Charismatic movements encompass 524 million believers will be one of their work's more controversial statistics. No one else has attempted such an estimate.
...cont'd at link
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