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To: vladimir998
Paulus Vladimiri, a 15th century Polish canon lawyer and university rector, showed that the Catholic understanding of human dignity and human rights was broader and deeper then than among the Protestants in the next century.

It may be the case that Catholic scholars of the 15th century were ahead of Protestant scholars in the 16th (such as they were), but if Catholics had an early lead they did not hold it long. Needless to say, it is in Locke that the concept of unalienable rights reached a mature development.

More importantly, it is an empirical fact that Protestant countries have been more (small d) democratic and capitalistic than Catholic countries. There are a lot of attempts to explain this, and none of them are very satisfying (see also: Max Weber's failed thesis). But the empirical fact remains: Protestant countries took over the cultural lead from Catholics. This is still true today: the United States is the only industrialized country that has not secularized (in fact, it is heading the other direction).

9 posted on 06/21/2007 9:58:19 AM PDT by Jibaholic (http://www.gentlerespect.com)
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To: Jibaholic

You wrote:

“It may be the case that Catholic scholars of the 15th century were ahead of Protestant scholars in the 16th (such as they were), but if Catholics had an early lead they did not hold it long.”

Catholics STILL have the lead. If you want to make the mistake of isolating this to the political realm than perhaps Protestantism, with its inherently fractured and compartmentalized view of things, is ahead of the Catholic Church - but only because the Church deals with mankind and his society as an organic whole. If we are talking about the dignity of man as man, and not just as political creatures, then it must be recognized that no Protestant could ever have discerned Theology of the Body.

“Needless to say, it is in Locke that the concept of unalienable rights reached a mature development.”

Needless to say, Locke relied on St. Thomas Aquinas - through the Protestant filter of an Anglican canonist.

“More importantly, it is an empirical fact that Protestant countries have been more (small d) democratic and capitalistic than Catholic countries.”

1) that doesn’t change anything I said, 2) That is misleading. How democratic was 17th century England really? How democratic was it before 1832?

“There are a lot of attempts to explain this, and none of them are very satisfying (see also: Max Weber’s failed thesis). But the empirical fact remains: Protestant countries took over the cultural lead from Catholics.”

Nonsense. As has been noted by far greater men than you, those countries which went Protestant often suffered culturally for decades afterward. England was considered culturally retarded well into the nineteenth century by many of its own people. Bear baiting anyone? You might want to read Patrick Collinson’s From Iconoclasm to Iconophobia: the Cultural Impact of the Second English Reformation. Also, see if you can find Ralph Adams Cram’s essays on art and beauty. He was a Protestant and an art expert. He spoke at length about how the Protestant Revolution actually twisted cultural tastes in England.

You seem to think culture is ONLY a political thing, and not about art, or literature, or anything else.

“This is still true today: the United States is the only industrialized country that has not secularized (in fact, it is heading the other direction).”

What? The United States of America HAS ALWAYS BEEN AN OFFICIALLY SECULAR COUNTRY. Now, please don’t tell me some nonsense about how religious our people are. Many are - not necessarily to any effect either - but many are. Yet, we are OFFICIALLY a secular country. Where is God mentioned in our constitution? That’s right! Nowhere. Putting “In God We Trust” on out greenbacks isn’t enough. Also, do you realize that we come in 24th in the world in terms of religious observance (i.e. attending religious services, etc)? 24th in the world. Yeah, we might be #1 in the first world, but that isn’t necessarily saying much when you realize we come after Mexico on the world stage!


10 posted on 06/21/2007 10:42:27 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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