Posted on 06/17/2007 2:37:44 PM PDT by NYer
In 500 years that's all they've got?
#1 - A bad sermon - which I would like to see the whole text, because maybe "Marcos" painted a copy of the original and that is what the priest is talking about.
#2 - "Sahagún said that the worshippers claimed that Tonantzin was the proper Nahuatl for "Mother of God" -- but he disagreed, saying that "Mother of God" in Nahuatl would be "Dios y Nantzin."[25]
"Dios" and "y" are spanish words, not Nahuatl. So I don't what they are trying to say there, that is just dumb.
#3 The scientists. First you should know that most scientists have a bias against religion. Secondly, everyone knows that the tilma has paint on it, - some foolish Mexicans thought it would be a good idea to paint the image to make it look better. For the first 30 years or so the tilma was displayed outside and exposed to sun, wind and rain. A couple hundred years later, they painted on some of the tilma to make it look more colorful and brighter.
The other researcher can't back up his claims - The photographs of these putative overpaintings were not available in the Garza-Valdés 2002 publication, however.
and is disputed by the other researchers[28] Gilberto Aguirre, a San Antonio optometrist and colleague of Garza-Valdés who also took part in the 1999 study, examined the same photographs and stated that, while agreeing the painting had been tampered with, he disagreed with Garza-Valdes' conclusions. Gilberto Aguirre claims the conditions for conducting the study were inadequate. No control of the lighting and the fact that the painting was shot through an acrylic plate scientifically invalidates any results. He also questions Garza-Valdés' claim of ultraviolet light revealing two underlying images because according to Aguirre, ultraviolet light can't penetrate sub-surfaces. The team did take Infrared pictures but those didn't show additional images underneath the present one. [29]
Dear Uncle Chip,
Remember that anyone can post just about anything on wikipedia, and the people that have the time to post are generally hostile to Christianity.
Here is an article that shows the documented history of the image prior to 1600s. http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/LADYGUAD.HTM
Around 1528, the Spanish took over Montezuma’s temple and turned it into “city hall” for Mexico City. All the records were kept there. In 1692, Mexico City had a terrible fire. “City hall” burned, and they lost most of the records.
Our Lady of Guadalupe was well known throughout the Church from the mid 1500’s - as attested by the Christian fleet that carried the image into battle against the Muslims at LePanto in 1571.
Yes but that was more than likely the Spanish Our Lady of Guadalupe --- not the Mexican --- and it was this Spanish Our Lady of Guadalupe that had also been brought to Mexico from Spain.
"Guadalupe" of Spain has Mary holding baby Jesus. "Guadalupe" Mexico has Mary pregnant about to give birth to baby Jesus.
Spain
As the Moslems swept through Spain in the 8th century, a great religious treasure was buried for safe-keeping in the earth, high in the Estremadura Mountains. It was a much venerated statue of Our Lady holding the Divine Child Jesus that was a gift of Pope Gregory the Great to Bishop Leander of Seville. After the overthrow of Moorish occupation, the image was uncovered in the year 1326, subsequent to a vision of Our Lady to a humble shepherd by the name of Gil. Our Lady's very special statue was enshrined in a nearby Franciscan Monastery next to the "Wolf River."
Mexico
The Aztecs worshipped an evil stone "serpent god" that demanded human sacrifice. It was extremely difficult to win souls for Christ from these bloodthirsty savages. However, with God all things are possible. Our Lady appeared to a humble Aztec Indian convert by the name of Juan Diego in 1531. When asked her name by Juan Diego, at the request of the local bishop, Our Lady's response, in the Aztec language, included the words "te coatlaxopeuh" (pronounced: "te quatlasupe") and meant "one who crushes the head of the stone serpent." To Juan Diego and his fellow Aztecs, this revelation had great meaning, coupled with the miraculous image of Our Lady standing on top of a "crescent," the symbol of this evil serpent god. A tidal wave of conversions to Christianity ensued. However, Bishop Zumarraga, who was from Spain, made what was no doubt a "heavenly mistake". To the Bishop's Spanish ears, Our Lady's Aztec name of "Te Quatlasupe" sounded just like the name of the revered Madonna from Spain with the Islamic name, "Guadalupe." Hence, the bishop named the Mexican Madonna "Our Lady of Guadalupe."
Ping
I’m enjoying the story....never knew too much about it.
Thanks for the ping.
Or is it Mexico's version of Spain's Our Lady of Guadalupe in Extramurda?
Here from the Wiki article;
"Guillermo Schulenburg, the Basílica's abbot for over 30 years, declared in 1996 Juan Diego as a symbol and myth, a constructed character made to conquer the hearts of the native people and seize their religiosity in order to redirect it to the Vatican's will. He also commisioned a serious study, "out of sheer love for truth", which demonstrates the Lady of Guadalupe as a man-made painting, with no supernatural elements whatsoever. There is ample evidence of a 16th century shrine to Guadalupe at Tepeyac: however skeptics contend that this shrine was dedicated to the Spanish icon Our Lady of Guadalupe in Extremadura."
I just had to ping you since we are talking about your namesake or absence thereof. I thought you would “Juan” a know one way or the other.
(Groan)......and a "Rim Shot"!
There is ample evidence of a 16th century shrine to Guadalupe at Tepeyac: Good!
however skeptics contend that this shrine was dedicated to the Spanish icon Our Lady of Guadalupe in Extremadura."
The skeptics are clearly wrong. The image of Spain's "Guadalupe" is completely different than the "Our Lady of Guadalupe" in Mexico. As I posted before, the confusion comes from the Spanish trying to interpret the Nahuatl language.
Mexico's Our Lady of Guadalupe has an almost life-size image of Mary, pregnant and about to give birth to Jesus. The Spanish image is tiny, and has Mary holding the baby Jesus. You can't confuse them if you have seen them. The skeptics posting to wikipedia don't know what they are talking about.
The image carried by Admiral Andrea Doria in the Battle of LePanto is Mexico's Guadalupe. His copy was touched to the original and sent to the King of Spain King Phillip II) by the ArchBishop of Mexico. During the battle, things were going badly for the Christians. Andrea Doria went to his cabin and prayed to God for help, and asked Our Lady of Guadalupe (Mexico's patroness, as shown in the tilma) to pray with him. The winds changed directions and the Christians won a miraculous victory. Thousands of Christian slaves were also freed, and Europe was spared a Muslim invasion. Praised be Jesus Christ.
You can see the Spanish image here, as well as read more about the hsitory of the two images.
http://www.solt3.org/guadalupespain.htm
You can do book searches on Book Finder - Super Site -- http://www.bookfinder.com"
The point of the Bookfinder website is that you can find USED CATHOLIC Books in very good condition for anywhere from $3 to $6 for something that might cost $25. You can also find hard to find books as well.
The BOOKFINDER site does not just check AMAZON, but quite a number of sites -- ABEBOOKS, ALBRIS, etc.
I also own a book simply titled “Our Lady of Guadalupe” and it has a great deal of historical documentation and is the product of years of research. It was published in 1936, long before there was technology to do further studies on the tilma. It is primarily based on the available history of the “paper trails” between Zumarraga and Rome.
bump for later reading
Bump for further research!
I pulled the star chart for the night sky for 12-12-1531 and I thought some of you may be interested in seeing it. It is pretty telling!
http://www.ice540.com/J14.html
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