Posted on 06/17/2007 4:26:04 AM PDT by markomalley
That is one thing that the article is stating. The prayer, in of itself, is a tremendous catechesis.
Did you realize that the final 100 paragraphs of the Catechism of the Catholic Church is written around that prayer? Just a little trivia for you there...
I should say, if you’re mindlessly repeating it, you might as well sit down and have a coke - you’re wasting time.
I sort of agree with you, but not exactly. The repeated words, in of themselves, do not accomplish anything of themselves (they are not an incantation), but...
As an example, my family prays the blessing before every meal: Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to receive from thy bounty, through Christ our Lord. Amen.
You're absolutely right that those words have little or no meaning in of themselves. But think about the catechesis behind those words:
Do we go through that little catechesis every night? No. Have we gone through it? Yes. Do we take long and forever praying that each night? No. Do those things (at least part of them) come to mind as we pray that? Yes, certainly.
And that is my point: if you take a few minutes and consider what it is that you're praying, you will mentally call to mind these things as you pray that verbal prayer. You will certainly turn your eyes to God when you do so.
That, in of itself, has value.
But, again, the words, in of themselves, if they are simply prayed without thought, without consideration, without turning your mind and heart toward God, are not going to have meaning.
I don't think sin sends someone to hell or that salvation depends on keeping His law. I do think you need to repent of your sins to be in "good standing" with Father. Salvation depends on if you accept Jesus or not. However, I don't believe in "once saved always saved". I think you can turn your back on Him - He will never leave you but we can leave Him.
How would "sin break the relationship between Father and Son"?
Just show me a scripture that God says He is the father of all humanity . There is no such scripture. Those that believe that are building a non scriptural God that meets their expectations . He is not the God of the bible.
Is there a scripture that says he is NOT the Father of all humanity? Please explain how I am building a "non scriptural God to meet my expectations" by believing He, as the Creator, is Father to all. How does that make Him, "not the God of the Bible"?
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];....Jhn 8:44 — Ye are of [your] father the devil
I too believe the tares are the children of Satan, through Cain. He is their earthly ancestor but isn't God, as creator of all, the Heavenly Father of all?
I see what you are saying, " All the human children of God are adopted by faith." I guess we just have to disagree about this. I see all as being born with Him being their heavenly Father. What we do in our life, the decisions we make decide whether we will be with Him or not.
To me it would be like us having several children. Some may love us and always want to be with us while others decide they want nothing to do with Dad and Mom. Would that decision make them any less our child? Also, even if you greatly loved a child but they continued to do terrible things and would not repent you would not allow them to enter your home with your other children. They're still your child but they have essentially been disowned. I think that is the position of the "tares" in the scripture you quoted. If they repent they would be accepted back.
This is an interesting discussion Ears to Hear - Thank you
......Ping
I wasn't a "beginner" when I hit 13. Makes the rest a bit suspect.
“Our Father...” Good Hebrew prayer.
Thanks for adding so much to the understanding of the roles of both sons in this parable. It’s interesting how somewhat frequently in Scripture the contrasts of sons (or sisters/brothers) are there to help us reflect on both sides of a parable, or an actual incident in Scripture.
Just to mention two—Martha and Mary, both having something to teach us about serving the Lord; and the parable of the two brothers, each of whom said they would do a special job for their father.
We are always able to view the contrasts and take into our hearts certain lessons that each can give us. All three of you have added thoughts to this parable that gave me new insights to consider.
Thanks much.
Well, good for you! I'm glad that God has blessed you with such a tremendous gift. I'm also glad that God has given you the confidence to declare boldly that you've been granted such a tremendous grace in your life.
By the way, the above is honest admiration, not sarcasm. If you were not a "beginner" when you hit 13, I can only imagine how powerful your prayer life is now.
As for me, I was pretty much a beginner until I hit 40 or so. In many ways, I still am. So I guess there's room for both sides. You know, I still have to humbly ask God for the grace to give me the words to say when I verbally pray? You know, I still have to humbly ask God to enlighten my eyes when I open the scriptures? You know, when I meditate on a scripture or silently pray and open my heart to God's majesty in adoration, there are times that I still get distracted?
It is my fervent wish that someday I could honestly and without being a braggart call myself a true prayer warrior. But until that time, I just have to humbly go my way, trusting God to provide for me moment by moment. And for somebody like me, the use of such an article could have provided considerable insight when I was a youth.
Not meant that way. My folks taught more than rote prayer growing up, so it was always more than mere recitation (except for grace, which was always “Bless us oh Lord and these thy gifts etc).
But you never become an “expert” by any means. It’s a journey.
Honestly, unless one is repeating words in a foreign language of which one has no knowledge (as, for example, I could sing a song in memorized Gaelic, with no idea what the words meant), then it seems impossible for the use of the words to have no connection at all to the contemplation of the meaning and intention.
Yes, one's mind can drift, but even to begin saying the Our Father, one had to have the intention of raising the heart and mind to "Our Father, who are in Heaven."
Yes, one's mind can drift, but even to begin saying the Our Father, one had to have the intention of raising the heart and mind to "Our Father, who are in Heaven.
And that's exactly my point. Even a recited prayer (like a Psalm) turns the pray-er's heart to the object of that prayer.
That's true! Having so many sons, I often reflect on brothers in the Bible, and wonder what the odds are for mine to turn out well :-).
It's interesting that the conflict between brothers is the first development after the Fall, and that it seems to manifest so early in life. I was reading to some of my sons earlier, with my 1-year-old sitting beside me. The 3-year-old came up and put his head on my knee, and his brother immediately shrieked and whacked him on the head with the book! (Didn't hurt him, James has a head like a cinder block.) My three youngest boys can be like puppies fighting over a bone sometimes.
We have taught the same to our daughter, as well, since she was too young to really understand. But there are a lot of children who don't have that benefit. They are old enough to understand but weren't taught. Perhaps their parents didn't know. Perhaps their parents were lazy. Or whatever.
The article discusses how to use this rote prayer as a method of teaching important truths about more deep and personal methods of prayer. And I can't see how that's bad.
I often suggest the Psalms to my children or my students at church. Anything we need to say to God, at any time in life, can be found in the Psalms!
40 or so - you lucky duck. How about 58?
It gives new meaning to the parable of the prodigal son (daughter)and the one about latecomers working in the field. Thank goodness Father is so very forgiving.
.......Ping
I think it also shows that our salvation is not based on works but the mercy of God, but there is a judgment of rewards and those that remain faithful will have a special reward.
I don’t disagree with you at all. I was really addressing those who object to rote prayers. Praying the Rosary is another way to do it. You don’t stop and think about each word every time you say it. Sometimes the mind drifts away, then you bring it back. Over the course of saying the Our Father what, 35 times or something, you DO end up meditating on the meaning of each clause.
I think a little pause before and after the meal blessing to ponder the meaning is nice. I prefer it to the holding hands and endless freeform by the “best pray-er” at the table. I find free-form prayer to be self-indulgent and redundant. I also find the hand-holding to be “gay”, not necessarily homosexual, but unwanted contact that doesn’t come about organically, but is ordered by someone else.
That’s why I don’t like “The Peace” very much. Forcing people to have physical contact with strangers that they don’t want to contact is not only non-scriptural, it’s unpleasant and makes some people not want to come to church. Not that people aren’t welcome to contact each other any time they want! I just don’t like it coerced. I feel like I need to wash my hands after. I take communion on the tongue now, so I don’t have to worry about touching the Host, but I used to.
My best buddy in the choir and I have taken to doing an ancient peace passing. We face each other and do a significant (but not profound) bow. Then we sort of smirk because we feel a little bit naughty, I’m not sure why.
Don't get me started on that one. I remember visiting one parish years ago that actually doing the "kiss of peace." literally. Arrgghh.
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