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To: Mad Dawg
Well to each his own oddity. I don't exactly see how vicar would be odd (heck, I once held that title -- in a mission in Mississippi. All it means is your somebody's representative. It's related to Vice - as in vice president, I hasten to add ...

Well, not really.
[Origin: 1250–1300; ME < AF vicare; OF vicaire < L vicÄ�rius a substitute, n. use of adj.; see vicarious]

How do you feel about "pastor"?

Well, of course it doesn't matter how I feel. Some terms for roles in the church are given:

Ephesians 4:10-12 (New International Version)
10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up.

Comparing this to Matthew 23, one sees the difference is between people being perceived as having special status and importance over others (bad) vs. people working humbly to build up others as servants (good).

It's also about people taking authority upon themselves (bad) vs. people not seeking "entitlement," but realizing they are fallible facilitators while God is only in authority.

It's also about people placing themselves and their own identity between another individual and God (bad) vs. people drawing all attention of spiritual interest, adulation, and exhaltation (worship) to God and making sure they don't get in the way by eclipsing any of His light with any other individual (good) "Get your head out of my sunshine!"

In Christ, the attention is on and the appeal is to God, His and our Father, by the power of the Holy Spirit -- not upon any other person. The messenger has no authority. He only conveys authority when he is bringing the message.

The "ruler" or measuring tool here is the Word of God Itself/Himself, which is given in Scripture directly to all of us. The "ruler" is not another, who interprets and dispenses Scripture for the rest of us.

The interpreter of the Word of God is the Holy Sprit and those in Christ are, being in Christ, granted all the authority God gives any man.

654 posted on 06/15/2007 7:52:17 AM PDT by unspun (What do you think? Please think, before you answer.)
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To: unspun
Substitute - representative, how big is THAT difference. A vice president is a substitute president. When I was vicar of a parish that meant i was the Bishops representative or substitute there. SO some are appointed to be teachers? That would be "magistri" in Latin. So "Magisterium" is practically Biblical, being the vaguely collective teaching office of the church. The next two paragraphs I think are more about what people project on the RC Church than about what it is. The clergy of the RC Church do not view themselves as taking authority upon themselves. Such authority as they think they have they think is handed down by successors of the Apostles. Someone who considers himself possibly to have a call to be a deacon, priest or bishop has to be approved by various committees of presbyters and bishops (or their vicars) as well as by various church approved teachers.

My impression is that it is some protestant organizations where a person appoints himself or herself as pastor.

So while clearly there is a difference about how a call is discerned and there have been abuses, If you had come to me when I was in the Episcopal Church and told me I took authority on myself I would have laughed with astonishment! It was in every way conferred.

I couldn't agree more about drawing attention to oneself. I always used to say the object of the game was to be a window, not a wall, and the best windows are invisible.

I would say that the oft cited passage from Timothy is all about dispensing Scripture (dispensing, not rationing) and though it refers to the OT, it is still an ordained minister being given instructions from the one who ordained him about how to use the Scripture in preaching the Gospel. I'm not saying my take is conclusive, but I think it's at least a possible reading of the passage.

I do not find bold face any more persuasive than regular type and I disagree with your last sentence, and my disagreement based on, ah, Eph. 4:10-12, I Cor 12, Acts 1:15-end,6:6, and so forth.

655 posted on 06/15/2007 8:42:56 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: unspun

Pastor is, of course, Biblical as you note.

I don’t recall if I have ever referred to someone as “Reverend.”

I tend to avoid lofty pontifical titles like the plague.


690 posted on 06/15/2007 7:03:12 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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