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To: unspun
Well to each his own oddity. I don't exactly see how vicar would be odd (heck, I once held that title -- in a mission in Mississippi. All it means is your somebody's representative. It's related to Vice - as in vice president, I hasten to add ...

And you do know there isn't some group somewhere in the Vatican with "Magisterium" on the office door.

How do you feel about "pastor"?

645 posted on 06/15/2007 3:06:15 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg
Well to each his own oddity. I don't exactly see how vicar would be odd (heck, I once held that title -- in a mission in Mississippi. All it means is your somebody's representative. It's related to Vice - as in vice president, I hasten to add ...

Well, not really.
[Origin: 1250–1300; ME < AF vicare; OF vicaire < L vicÄ�rius a substitute, n. use of adj.; see vicarious]

How do you feel about "pastor"?

Well, of course it doesn't matter how I feel. Some terms for roles in the church are given:

Ephesians 4:10-12 (New International Version)
10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up.

Comparing this to Matthew 23, one sees the difference is between people being perceived as having special status and importance over others (bad) vs. people working humbly to build up others as servants (good).

It's also about people taking authority upon themselves (bad) vs. people not seeking "entitlement," but realizing they are fallible facilitators while God is only in authority.

It's also about people placing themselves and their own identity between another individual and God (bad) vs. people drawing all attention of spiritual interest, adulation, and exhaltation (worship) to God and making sure they don't get in the way by eclipsing any of His light with any other individual (good) "Get your head out of my sunshine!"

In Christ, the attention is on and the appeal is to God, His and our Father, by the power of the Holy Spirit -- not upon any other person. The messenger has no authority. He only conveys authority when he is bringing the message.

The "ruler" or measuring tool here is the Word of God Itself/Himself, which is given in Scripture directly to all of us. The "ruler" is not another, who interprets and dispenses Scripture for the rest of us.

The interpreter of the Word of God is the Holy Sprit and those in Christ are, being in Christ, granted all the authority God gives any man.

654 posted on 06/15/2007 7:52:17 AM PDT by unspun (What do you think? Please think, before you answer.)
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To: Mad Dawg; unspun; Quix
Well to each his own oddity. I don't exactly see how vicar would be odd (heck, I once held that title -- in a mission in Mississippi. All it means is your somebody's representative. It's related to Vice - as in vice president, I hasten to add ...

And you do know there isn't some group somewhere in the Vatican with "Magisterium" on the office door.

How do you feel about "pastor"?

My two cents:

Matthew 23:
9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
10 Neither be called masters, for you have one master, the Christ.
11 He who is greatest among you shall be your servant;
12 whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

I believe this is an instance where we aren't expected to read every word of Scripture in an absoloute literal sense based on our current use of language. I think calling the humble Priest "Father Soandso", and calling the Pastor "Reverend Soandso" are not the examples which Jesus was referring to.

I do believe he was speaking of any man on earth who exalts himself and calls himself the "Holy Father", "Christs' Vicar on Earth", and other such pretentious titles. This person will be humbled.

662 posted on 06/15/2007 9:49:21 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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