Posted on 06/10/2007 3:02:20 PM PDT by NYer
Many modern people have the notion that the principal mission of the Catholic Church is to impose belief on unbelievers. The reality is that most of its time is spent trying to restrain belief in everything from spoon-bending to the aliens who allegedly speak to us through a cat in Poughkeepsie.
The riptides and cross-currents of religious enthusiasm in American culture are kaleidoscopic and dizzying. Cradle Catholics can be forgiven for just ignoring the whole thing and many of them do. But it’s still worth taking into account because some religious trends can have decided real-world effects.
Some of the effects of unrestrained belief can be amusing.
For instance, after five centuries of being told by Protestant polemicists that we “Romanists” do not trust the saving grace of Jesus Christ and ignorantly seek salvation by the works of the law, it is a weird thing for a Catholic to see the spectacle of kooky apocalyptic Protestants eagerly excited about the birth of red heifers because this will (they hope) be the prelude to rebuilding the Temple of Solomon and the re-institution of the Mosaic sacrificial system. Just how that Temple will be rebuilt when the Dome of the Rock is situated on the site of the Temple is not quite as clearly worked out.
Which brings me to something just as kooky, but less amusing.
Recently, James Dobson, a leading Evangelical and a usually sensible man, hosted on his show one Joel Rosenberg, author of something called Epicenter: Why Current Rumblings in the Middle East Will Change Your Future. Rosenberg claims to know “what the Bible says” about what is happening in the Mideast and is not shy about making “predictions regarding the fate of the Middle East regarding issues such as Iran’s nuclear threats against Israel, the arms race and ultimately ... Armageddon.” Here’s a snippet:
Dobson: “Well, Joel, let’s explain to everybody how Ezekiel 38 turns out, because Israel is about to be attacked, and a huge number of troops from Russia and Iran are coming toward Israel to destroy it, and what happens?”
Rosenberg: “Well, God is going to move. You won’t find in the Scriptures that the United States is coming to rescue Israel or the European Union, but God says he is going to supernaturally intervene — we’re talking about fire from heaven, a massive earthquake, diseases spreading through the enemy forces. It is going to be such a clear judgment against the enemies of Israel that Ezekiel 39 says that it will take seven months to bury all the bodies of the slain enemies of Israel. “
Such standard-issue Evangelical prophetic cocksureness is an excellent example of why a magisterium is so useful and necessary.
Not only does the magisterium help us know what is essential to the faith, it also helps us remain free of what is unessential. For the various species of Protestantism, in addition to denying real biblical truths such as the Real Presence or infant baptism, also have a tendency to invent “biblical truths” that do not exist and impose them by means of a sort of cultural pressure via charismatic preachers with pet theories who, in their own sphere, are granted an infallibility the Pope could never dream of.
Now, a Catholic is quite free to have a kooky private reading of Ezekiel 38-39 as a prophecy of the “coming resurgent Soviet Union” and its alliance with Muslims, communist Chinese or whoever, all in a vast Cecil B. DeMille battle against Israel. The Church has all sorts of room for eccentrics, and everybody needs a hobby.
But a Catholic is not free to go around telling everybody that “this is the clear teaching of the Bible” and demand it be believed. For the fact is, this kooky theory is emphatically not the clear teaching of the Bible, nor does it have any sanction whatsoever from the Church, the tradition, the Fathers, the councils or the popes. It is a pure novelty we can and should ignore.
What we should not ignore is Rosenberg’s claim that, “Given the events going on in our world today, people at the Pentagon, people at the CIA, people at the White House are asking to sit down and talk about these issues, to understand the Biblical perspective, because it is uncanny what is happening out there and it deserves some study.”
I suspect that Rosenberg is exaggerating his clout with the big cheeses in DC. I doubt that the Pentagon’s intel meetings are dominated by exegeses of Ezekiel 38.
But I do think it matters if a significant portion of the American polity drinks in such bizarre theories as if they were God’s revealed Truth.
Ideas have consequences, especially crazy ones. Most crazy ideas do no harm.
Crazy ideas about the Middle East, backed by the force of arms, stand a better than average chance of killing millions.
Asking the sorts of questions
the Jewish RELIGIOUS leaders asked Jesus face to face
. . . doesn’t strike me as a route to edification.
But in a brief summary answer to your queries . . .
I believe with a deep conviction that in all the reasonably authentic and reasonably balanced scholarly translations . . .
SUFFICIENT CORE ELEMENTS OF THE GOSPEL EXIST CLEARLY ENOUGH
for THOSE WHO EARNESTLY SEEK GOD TO FIND HIM.
Holy Spirit is not that hindered by man’s failings in translation or any other thing.
Even idiot oversight groups—magicstericals—in ALL denominations cannot keep Holy Spirit from being effective in spite of their diligent efforts too often to do so.
Holy Spirit can lead folks to Jesus with the Declaration of Independence.
Holy Spirit can lead folks to Jesus with Maya Angelou.
Holy Spirit can lead folks to Jesus with a Rocky Mountain fishing stream and mountain vista.
Further, Holy Spirit can even incredibly disciple folks with all manner of grist for the mill.
Yeah, flawed denominational junk hinders folks on occasion.
But those earnestly persistently seeking all God has for them . . . will find God well able to meet their need REGARDLESS.
Check out THE MARCH OF FAITH: SAMUEL MORRIS.
AMEN! AMEN!
Entirely possible. I don’t always keep my correspondents super straight.
Alas, I’m rushing off to pot again. Maybe I’ll try and sort it out this evening.
Sorry for any misapplications.
Amen and Amen
No problem. Have fun potting!
1) The non-biblical principle of Sola samual morris
and
2) The Holy Spirit can lead men to Christ through the Declaration of Independence or a trout stream or Maya Angelou or a chiapet or a Slim Jim . . . but never EVER EVER the Magisterium. NEVER!
What, did someone break Irving's Law again?
Ah, Irving’s Law, the bogus and dishonorable attempt to shelter anti-Catholic hate speech from counter-criticism.
In other words, the truthfulness or accuracy of one's accusations should never be questioned - it's only the seriousness of the charge that matters here.
Thank you for your testimony, Ms. Hill. You may be seated.
That's a beautiful strawman, but a strawman nonetheless. "Irving's Law" as amended is intended to stifle any comparison of anti-Catholic hate speech to Jack Chick; it invites the reader to reject any counter-criticism of anti-Catholic hate speech out of hand.
YOU are the one who is saying the accuracy of certain accusations and criticisms should never be questioned, not me, for you suggest that if "Irving's Law" is violated, the post should be dismissed out of hand.
Question accusations all you want, but attempting to stifle any discussion is, well, a demonstration of the weakness of your position (at the very least).
It is also bogus and dishonorable. Have fun with that.
The problem here is that no Protestants are citing Jack Chick, not on any open threads anyway, and certainly not with the Moderator's blessing. Regardless, some Catholics have been quick to (repeatedly) accuse Protestants of doing so anyway, w/o any specific evidence or citation to back up the accusation. Hence Irving's Law.
Petronski, if someone actually cites Jack Chick on an open thread, you have my full permission and blessing to smack them down for doing so. I'm not a fan of "anti-Catholicism", hate speech, or religious bigotry either.
There are all kinds of anti-Catholic hate speech that sounds like it could come from Jack Chick but is actually the “creativity” of some posters here at FR.
That’s the point of the mention of Jack Chick. Of COURSE it’s not about actual Jack Chick posts. It’s about making the comparison.
You’re deflecting again....all in defense of the bogus, dishonorable “Irving’s Law.”
If you spot a post that includes a Jack Chick cartoon, excerpt or link - let me know and I will remove it. It is hate speech and we do not allow it to be repeated or promoted here whether intentionally or not.
The Scholastics never asked that question. It's a Rationalistic canard, perpetuated by those who were Aquinas' intellectual inferiors. If you can't do, ridicule.
Aquinas' angelology is a simply brilliant synthesis of faith and reason.
Yes, I know.
Yet somehow, if someone posts Chick-like content that I cannot trace directly to a Chick tract, that’s just fine and dandy.
The Holy Spirit can and does lead men through the magisterium; not to the magisterium.
Eventually, God's sheep are led to the perfect light of Christ through the preaching of His word and the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
He leadeth counsellors away spoiled, and maketh the judges fools." -- Job 12:16-17"With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are his.
"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." -- 2 Corinthians 4:6
Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow." -- Isaiah 50:10-11"Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God.
No Catholic claims they do.
The Holy Spirit can and does lead men through the magisterium; not to the magisterium.
**************
I don't think Petronski said that He did lead men to the magisterium.
You're saying the magisterium leads to Christ, right?
Where is that in Scripture?
Words have meaning. I'll continue pointing out strawmen and shell games whenever they appear.
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