Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[tiki]

I remember your first post. I had you pegged in one and you have not changed my mind. May God heal the minds and the hearts of self-righteous people, especially those on FR.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

John 21:25

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." -- John 21:25

God, however, chose not to inspire men to write every single thing that Christ did or said. So what? From everything we know He did and said we are sufficiently equipped to live a God-glorifying, obedient, joyful life.

This fact also does not permit us to make things up which is what the church in Rome does. It makes things up.

Paul is only saying what a great aid scripture is, but in no way is he defining sola scriptura.

"A great aid?" Why do you think Scripture is a "great aid?"

Scripture is God-breathed. Scripture is the primary means by which God ordained the Holy Spirit to reach His children. Christ spoke by Scripture. Christ was Scripture, the word of God made flesh.

IS SOLA SCRIPTURA A PROTESTANT CONCOCTION?
by Greg Bahnsen

"...I am convinced (as Luther was convinced) that if we give up sola Scriptura, we will inevitably give up sola Gratia as well. Because the giving up of the Protestant authority (the principle of sola Scriptura) simply opens the door for other ways of pleasing God to enter in that are not based upon His own revelation. And it's a very short step from thinking that I can follow a religious tradition that cannot be verified objectively by the Word of God to the idea that I can please God by something that He has not provided. It is a very short step from the denial of sola Scriptura to the denial of sola Gratia when it comes to salvation....

...the distinctive and the controversial doctrines or practices of the Roman Catholic Church (the distinctive and controversial doctrines, and practices of the Roman Church) are all founded solely upon alleged tradition! Purgatory, the mass, transubstantiation, indulgences, the treasury of merit, penance, the rosary, prayers to Mary, holy water, the papacy, and on and on. Those things which are distinctive to the Roman Catholic Church, you will find, that when you get into debates with Roman Catholics, they appeal not to biblical exegesis to support, but they appeal to this alleged Apostolic Oral Tradition that supposed to still be alive in the Church. And I think that's just asking a bit too much of anybody to expect that those heavy and controversial points could be founded not upon an objective Word from God (in the way that we've seen at the beginning of tonight's lecture), but to be founded upon an unverifiable, subjectively adduced tradition that is said to be Apostolic..."

[arielguard]

Perhaps you may find peace and devotion in the Jesus Prayer that Orthodox Christians pray on their prayer ropes. Before I discovered the Orthodox Church I had begun to pray the Prayer of the Publican. It was about a year later (praise God) that I discovered the Orthodox Church to discover the Jesus Prayer which has been prayed since before the Great Schism.

[arielguard]

Your right. It is a good book, and certainly a fascinating testimony. A Roman Catholic friend loaned it to me after he read it.

[arielguard]

As a protestant I always believed, and was taught, that the Saints will reign in heaven. However, I NEVER really thought of Mary as a Saint. Turns out that by my own protestant theology she does indeed reign. It’s also not really a contradiction (I had thought the same.) because the Greeks thought Paul had some power of his own, but he corrected them. It was Christ working through him as he does his mother. Truly he fulfilled ALL the law in honoring her.

[arielguard]

Start reading the earliest church writings, and you will soon find your way home. I started with Polycarp Bishop of Smyrna, and Ignatius Bishop of Antioch both of whom KNEW the Apostles. No mumbo-jumbo there...

[Enosh]

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

[Enosh]

"just called me a fraud."

And Fr. Mod called you a zot.

I hope you get to come back when you cool down.

[xzins]

why should an anti-protestant thread be allowed to go forward without any input from protestants. Absurd.

Every one of these “i returned to Rome”, “I pray the Rosary even though I’m a Protestant,” and “I’m a Mariologist Calvinist” threads is anti-protestant.

Fortunately, someone with half an ounce of sense has seen that people will defend their religion when it gets attacked. The rules are no profanity, no personal attacks, and no racism or violence.

That’s exactly the same as the rest of Free Republic. In fact, it’s monitored much more closely here, and the rest of FR is quite a bit rougher.

[ichabod1]

They may have gone away but they’re back now, at least in every Catholic church I’ve been in. Parishioners also demanded the return of the Stations of the Cross, and kneelers in most cases.

[ichabod1]

When did it become “ok” so to speak to ask for the intercession of saints who are asleep in Christ?

As far back as *I* can remember! :)

The Transfiguration, when the disciples saw Elijah and Moses with Jesus, might have given them a clue that not everybody is asleep up there, but I don't really have an answer for you.

[ichabod1]

The PResbyterians pray “forgive us our debts” because any good Scotsman would rather have his debts forgiven than his trespasses.

[GoLightly]

The Transfiguration, when the disciples saw Elijah and Moses with Jesus, might have given them a clue that not everybody is asleep up there

Don't you think Jesus might have had a clue before then & if we were to pray to them, some mention of it would have made its way into Scripture? Why do we pray for other Christians? It's scriptural, but besides that, what do you think it does *to* us? Do you guys ever pray *for* the saints? There are a lot of prayers to Mary, but are there any that you say that are for her?

[GoLightly]

I remember seeing kneelers in Catholic churches when I was a kid, but I don’t remember using them during Mass at all. In my own church they were used several times during every service. The church that I’m in now doesn’t have any.

[GoLightly]

The same idea came to my mind when I started seeing posts along the lines that this thread is ours (Catholic), why don’t Protestants start their own? I looked up at the title & wondered how this thread could be construed to be a Catholic thread. It looks to me like we have a Catholic trying to figure out how to dabble in *our* churches, not the other way around.

[P-Marlowe]

It is a very short step from the denial of sola Scriptura to the denial of sola Gratia when it comes to salvation

On another thread it was noted that there are a large number of Catholics ready to give Mary the official and irrevocable and ex cathedra place of "co-Redeemer" with Christ thus giving to Mary credit for both the work (sola Christus) and the Glory (Sola Deo Gloria) of salvation.

Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. (Mark 7:13 KJV)

[GoLightly]

I know we’re nowhere near getting our initial product to market, but I was thinking about another possible product. If we added a line of prayer rugs & added a practice of praying 5 times a day in the direction of Calvary, it might make converting some Muslims to Christianity more doable. Embrace some of their rituals & it would ease their transition.

[P-Marlowe]

If we added a line of prayer rugs & added a practice of praying 5 times a day in the direction of Calvary, it might make converting some Muslims to Christianity more doable.

Prayer rugs has been done and these people might keep the rugs they have, thus depriving us of the our ability to convince them that they need OUR prayer rugs.

I would suggest perhaps a set of Holy Quilted Knee Pads. Kind of like a combination prayer rug and kneeling bar.

That way, people could just strap them on and fall to their knees whenever they get the uncontrollable urge to do the "Cardery"... like when they have two pair and the guy across the table has just gone all in.

[ichabod1]

Many of the wreckovated churches of the wigam don’t have them. These are also typically the churches that have put the Presence in a closet. I don’t like worshipping in those places because the tile gets really hard on my knees.

[ichabod1]

Why would we need to pray FOR the Saints? The whole reason we feel confident in praying to them is because we’re confident they’re already in heaven, happy with Jesus.

Has it ever occurred to you that when your pastor stands up there and prays HIS prayer and you sit there with your head bowed, that he’s interceding for you? Why do you have your preacher intercede for you? Aren’t your own prayers good enough? Or is it because you think he has the “right” words? Yeah, I thought so.

And why bother praying for others? Aren’t you interceding for them? Let them pray for themselves! If they are among God’s elect, He will know his own.