Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[xzins]

confession = denomination/religious group/

[Larry Lucido]

:-)

[GoLightly]

Ah, but the short, stubby pencil doctrine is okay, as it is based upon the traditions of many churches.

How are churches like golf courses?

[pjr12345]

Did either of you bother to read the title of this thread? Hmm... provocative and inviting, isn’t it?

[Larry Lucido]

I think you have to type each one, but if you have carpal tunnel you can cut and paste.

[pjr12345]

If we say it, they will believe it.

We could at least offer a certificate of authenticity... that's worth another buck or two.

[P-Marlowe]

P.Marlowe just called me a fraud.

That is not true. I should hope you could recognize your own words. I was quoting your post to Phatus Maximus.

I guess I shouldn't have jumped into that conversation, eh?

[P-Marlowe]

We could at least offer a certificate of authenticity... that's worth another buck or two.

We can get those printed in China for about 8 cents each.

[pjr12345]

We can get those printed in China for about 8 cents each.

How much more if we attach a pretty red ribbon to each one?

[P-Marlowe]

I think we can get red ribbon from Sri Lanka, but the labor costs of tying the ribbon could be prohibitive. What we can to is to have the ribbons and the certificates shipped to Cambodia and have the ribbons tied there and shipped in bulk to our Port of Entry in Los Angeles and then hire illegal aliens to box them up and ship them.

[pjr12345]

And all of this would be okay, because our commerce will be helping so many folks earn a living!

[GoLightly]

What about putting a badge of authenticity & skip tying the ribbon in a bow? With the badge we could skip the cert. The die cut up front would cost a little, but we’re looking for production, aren’t we?

[P-Marlowe]

And all of this would be okay, because our commerce will be helping so many folks earn a living!

That's right. Despite our pecuniary intentions, we can rest assured that our good works will be accounted to us for righteousness as we help to feed and clothe the poor heathens in China and Sri Lanka and Cambodia and the poor starving illegal aliens in Los Angeles.

[P-Marlowe]

What about putting a badge of authenticity & skip tying the ribbon in a bow? With the badge we could skip the cert. The die cut up front would cost a little, but we’re looking for production, aren’t we?

Good idea. With a couple of cents worth of gold electroplating on the "Badge of Authenticity" we might be able to double the price of the "Cardery" and the relics.

Now we've got to come up with a marketing plan so that our faithful followers will think that the NEED to have this thing.

Maybe if we promised them some kind of eternal reward if they buy it and use it on a daily basis.

Any ideas?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

LOLOL.

Sometimes the Latin gives it a patina of logic that's nowhere to be found.

[tiki]

I sure wouldn’t argue with your conclusion.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You need to reign in this hatred of Catholics....we are NOT starting it

A thread entitled, "Protestants and the Rosary" is obviously a thread that will draw debate.

Protestants do not believe God wants us to be praying to anyone other than the Triune God of creation, and Protestants will tell that to Catholics every time they suggest it.

Protestants take Scripture very seriously and heed the Bible when it clearly tells us...

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" -- 1 Timothy 2:5

To instruct a Protestant, even with the best of intentions, to pray to Mary is tantamount to telling a Protestant to blaspheme Jesus Christ. It's foolish to think we'd take such a damnable suggestion lightly.

And if we can't debate without making personally snide comments about other FReepers, then we should wait to find a less contentious thread.

It's a simple rule and one that can actually improve our writing and witness. If we can't defend our faith without personal assaults on other FReepers, then the fault is our own.

[tiki]

I can’t say but you obviously read xzins post and wanted to repeat it. I’ve noticed that you kind of echo other people a lot.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

All trees look alike in the dark.

[tiki]

Now you can imagine how piranhas attack.

If you'll notice on some of these thread, the one about Frank Beckwith is a prime example, there are rabid anti-Catholics and then there are rabid people who are also anti-Catholics. The one thing that you do know is that when a certain group swoops onto a thread is that it will have a very short life after they arrive.