Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[Suzy Quzy]

If Christ stood in YOUR living room, would you say...”What’s the big deal about your mother...she’s just a regular person...right”?

[Grunthor]

“No worries, he said all the right things.”

If you say so. I just like to understand what’s being said is all. But no worries, I think Heaven will be big enough for all believers.

[GoLightly]

Is it symbol, or is it a transformation?

Bread, wine AND Christ's body & blood. All are present and received.

I've never seen glass holders on the back of pews. The little glasses come in trays & you pick up a glass as you approach the alter. After you're done with it you put it back in the tray before you go back to your seat.

I think they make juice available to anyone who must refrain from alcohol, but it is an exception & everyone else gets about a thimbleful of wine.

[xzins]

It’s a start

$9.95?

[LordBridey]

My nephew puts his sons, 4 and 2 1/2, to bed each night with a decade of the rosary. It is marvelous to see the younger one try his best to make the Sign of the Cross. ;-o)

That is wonderful. I have a two year old as well ( nearly three), and it is a delight to watch her attempt the sign of the cross or genuflect before the tabernacle. They are uncoordinated as all get out at that age but the spontaneous emulation is pure joy to behold.

[Suzy Quzy]

God Bless You. Are you American?

[P-Marlowe]

It’s a start
$9.95?

Those cards are guilded with a genuine nickle plated chain and have been personally blessed by the High Stakes Poker Priest!

$99.95!

[phatus maximus]

Respectfully asked:

When did it become “ok” so to speak to ask for the intercession of saints who are asleep in Christ?

I’ve not been able to discern when this practice originated as it appears the apostles didn’t do this in their ministry as far as we can see in scripture..

Blessings.

PM

[phatus maximus]

Respectfully asked:

I don’t know so I’m asking, but is the Rosary “prescribed” for a lack of better word to do after confession to make reparations for sin or is that myth? If so, why is it done?

Blessings:

PM

[phatus maximus]

Respectfully asked:

Outside of the obvious (that we here typing to each other are alive on earth and can read our prayer requests of each other), how do you reconcile the issue of omnipotence. Only God knows all, sees all, hears all...how can the saints do this as well by hearing the multitude of prayer requests send simultaneously?

I look forward to your reply.

Blessings.

PM

[phatus maximus]

Respectfully asked:

How do you reconcile the difference between Christ’s explicit instructions on how to pray when comparing a greeting the Gabriel/Elizabeth said to Mary? Is this an implicit direction that God, thru Paul, John or Peter, instructed us to pray to the saint by the greeting extended to the saints at the chruches in their epistles? No disrespect intended or “catholic bashing” I’m just trying to understand the Catholic point of view in layman’s terms.

I look forward to your thoughts.

Blessings.

PM

[Titanites]

You could put a bunch of the sacred prayer cards on a chain and then chant the sacred prayer card Prayer over and over again as you work your way through the chain.

Careful. You're getting awfully close to imitating a Methodist prayer rope, LOL.

John Wesley also used the prayer rope, a rope on which he tied knots for use in counting a short Psalm prayer or the Jesus Prayer of Orthodoxy. Modern Methodist prayer books still recommend the making and use of such prayer ropes!

[Suzy Quzy]

Good Grief!!! You Protestants are unbelievable!!! Don’t you KNOW that Jesus HIMSELF taught us the Our Father and that the Angel Gabriel and Elizabeth gave us the Hail Mary.? really, I;m getting a little tire of your ignorance.

[Suzy Quzy]

Catholicism....learn It...Live It....Love It.

[phatus maximus]

Respectfully asked...

What is the coronation of Mary?

Blessings

PM

[P-Marlowe]

Careful. You're getting awfully close to imitating a Methodist prayer rope, LOL.

Quit mocking our sacred traditions!

[phatus maximus]

What exactly then in pennace?