Posted on 06/01/2007 2:28:41 PM PDT by Gamecock
You wrote:
“But, just to play the game: My ordination goes back to John Wesley whose ordination goes to the Anglicans,...”
Who twice lost their apostolic succession and had no valid ordinations.
“... that goes to the Old English Church...”
No such thing. Look at any “Old English” doc. and they’ll cleary say the writers and readers are members of the only Church they knew - the Catholic Church. That’s why all of the “Old English” saints are Catholic saints.
“... that goes to Orthodoxy that goes to Jerusalem.”
No. Catholic, Catholic, Catholic to Jerusalem (which was also Catholic).
By the way, is there any chance you’ll actually wake up and realize that you just demonstrated your sect to be wrong? After all, if you know your ordination is SUPPOSED to go back to Jerusalem then you’re making a case for apostolic succession, the Catholic Church AND NOTHING IN THE PROTESTANT WORLD.
"Be not afraid; only believe." -- Mark 5:36
Not any criticism, but definitely yours.
"Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth." -- 2 Timothy 2:15
That's another great quote, "doctor."
Next step for you . . . GET TO WORK.
That’s gonna leave a mark.
You wrote:
“Protestants believe to assign a sinless nature to anyone other than Jesus Christ is a grave error.”
And Protestants in a similar fashion simply believe whatever they choose.
“Nowhere in Scripture is Mary referred to as anything other than a devoted mother of the man, Jesus Christ.”
Nowhere in Scripture does it say that something must be explicitly in scripture to be true.
“Christ even corrects those who sought to assign her some unique position...”
Nonsense. All Jesus was saying was that it was more important to be part of Jesus’ spiritual family than his earthly family. Mary was a member of both families. She is Christ’s mother, and she is the best example of someone who hears and keeps the word of the Lord (Luke 1:38, 45).
Actually your church is in a double bind, because it teaches a contradiction.
Sin is the transgression of the law.
So to have a sinless nature and life would mean that one would have to keep the law perfectly
See what your church teaches on that
578 Jesus, Israel's Messiah and therefore the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, was to fulfill the Law by keeping it in its all embracing detail - according to his own words, down to "the least of these commandments".330 He is in fact the only one who could keep it perfectly.,331 On their own admission the Jews were never able to observe the Law in its entirety without violating the least of its precepts.332 This is why every year on the Day of Atonement the children of Israel ask God's forgiveness for their transgressions of the Law. The Law indeed makes up one inseparable whole, and St. James recalls, "Whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it."333
No one is lost until their final breath , there is still time
If you claim the Roman Catholic Church teaches that, how about a link where that doctrine is set forth? Take your time.
Oh thank you Lord Vader...
Sarcasm is weak debate and even weaker discourse.
I've seen better from you.
I've never seen good from you.
You wrote:
“Actually your church is in a double bind, because it teaches a contradiction. Sin is the transgression of the law. So to have a sinless nature and life would mean that one would have to keep the law perfectly See what your church teaches on that.”
You’ve already made an error. 1) Being filled with grace, as Mary was, protected her from sin. That does not mean Mary could perfectly keep every law. 2) Not every law or stricture was moral. Some were merely about purity. Mary essentially “violated” those purity laws each and every month (as every woman did). That impurity was not believed to be a moral violation of the law.
So Mary did sin then?
define grace for me please
You wrote:
“So Mary did sin then?”
Nope. Clearly you ignored what I wrote.
“define grace for me please”
No. You already showed you know how to use the CCC so use it.
“I’ve never seen good from you.”
Talk about leaving a mark!
I was talking to a friend just today about how some people view Catholics as worshiping Mary,if something is told over and over enough times people believe it. I have never questioned a persons’ faith in need of prayers and everyone has been most gracious to do so. I believe Mary is in heaven and if God our Father went through Mary to bring Jesus,our Redeemer then I shall follow the way of our Father. Besides if I can ask anyone of you here to pray for I certainly don’t find a problem asking the blessed Mother.
Martin Luther, Founder of the Reform, Speaks on Mary
In his sermon of August 15, 1522, the last time Martin Luther preached on the Feast of the Assumption, he stated:
There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.
The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522).
[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).
No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537).
One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).
Luther gives the Blessed Virgin the exalted position of “Spiritual Mother” for Christians:
It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother .. (Sermon, Christmas, 1522)
Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. (Sermon, Christmas, 1529).
Martin Luther had the belief of Mary’s Immaculate Conception, Luther’s words follow:
It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin” (Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527).
She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {”Little”} Prayer Book, 1522).
Martin Luther on Mary’s Perpetual Virginity
Here are some of the founders of refom commenting on Mary:
Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.
{Luther’s Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30) & Helmut T. Lehmann (vols. 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (vols. 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress Press (vols. 31-55), 1955, v.22:23 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }
Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that ‘brothers’ really mean ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.
{Pelikan, ibid., v.22:214-15 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }
A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .
{Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:199 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }
Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity . . .
When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.
{Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:206,212-3 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }
Editor Jaroslav Pelikan (Lutheran) adds:
Luther . . . does not even consider the possibility that Mary might have had other children than Jesus. This is consistent with his lifelong acceptance of the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.
{Pelikan, ibid.,v.22:214-5}
“. . . she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. . . . God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. . . . God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her.”
Ref: Luther’s Works, American edition, vol. 43, p. 40, ed. H. Lehmann, Fortress, 1968
“. . . she is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God. . . . it is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God.”
Ref: Sermon on John 14. 16: Luther’s Works (St. Louis, ed. Jaroslav, Pelican, Concordia. vol. 24. p. 107)
“Christ our Savior was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb. . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”
(REf: On the Gospel of St. John: Luther’s Works, vol. 22. p. 23, ed. Jaroslav Pelican, Concordia, 1957)
“Men have crowded all her glory into a single phrase: The Mother of God. No one can say anything greater of her, though he had as many tongues as there are leaves on the trees.” (From the Commentary on the Magnificat.)
Commentaries on Luther
“. . . in the resolutions of the 95 theses Luther rejects every blasphemy against the Virgin, and thinks that one should ask for pardon for any evil said or thought against her.” (Ref: Wm. J. Cole, “Was Luther a Devotee of Mary?” in Marian Studies 1970, p. 116:)
“In Luther’s Explanation of the Magnificat in 1521, he begins and ends with an invocation to Mary, which Wright feels compelled to call ‘surprising’”.
(David F. Wright, Chosen by God: Mary in Evangelical Perspecive, London: Marshall Pickering, 1989, p. 178, Cited from Faith & Reason, Spring 1994, p. 6.)
Martin Luther defends the Eucharist
In 1529 Martin Luther engaged the question of transubstantiation in the famous conference at Marburg with Zwingli and other Swiss theologians; he maintained his view that Christ is present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist.
Other Reformers on Mary’s Perpetual Virginity
John Calvin
Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s ‘brothers’ are sometimes mentioned.
{Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, tr. William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55}
[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called ‘first-born’; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.
{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107}
Under the word ‘brethren’ the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.
{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, (7:3) }
Huldreich Zwingli
He turns, in September 1522, to a lyrical defense of the perpetual virginity of the mother of Christ . . . To deny that Mary remained ‘inviolata’ before, during and after the birth of her Son, was to doubt the omnipotence of God . . . and it was right and profitable to repeat the angelic greeting - not prayer - ‘Hail Mary’ . . . God esteemed Mary above all creatures, including the saints and angels - it was her purity, innocence and invincible faith that mankind must follow. Prayer, however, must be . . . to God alone . . .
‘Fidei expositio,’ the last pamphlet from his pen . . . There is a special insistence upon the perpetual virginity of Mary.
{G. R. Potter, Zwingli, London: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1976, pp.88-9,395 / The Perpetual Virginity of Mary . . ., Sep. 17, 1522}
Zwingli had printed in 1524 a sermon on ‘Mary, ever virgin, mother of God.’
{Thurian, ibid., p.76}
I have never thought, still less taught, or declared publicly, anything concerning the subject of the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our salvation, which could be considered dishonourable, impious, unworthy or evil . . . I believe with all my heart according to the word of holy gospel that this pure virgin bore for us the Son of God and that she remained, in the birth and after it, a pure and unsullied virgin, for eternity.
{Thurian, ibid., p.76 / same sermon}
Heinrich Bullinger
Bullinger (d. 1575) . . . defends Mary’s perpetual virginity . . . and inveighs against the false Christians who defraud her of her rightful praise: ‘In Mary everything is extraordinary and all the more glorious as it has sprung from pure faith and burning love of God.’ She is ‘the most unique and the noblest member’ of the Christian community . . .
‘The Virgin Mary . . . completely sanctified by the grace and blood of her only Son and abundantly endowed by the gift of the Holy Spirit and preferred to all . . . now lives happily with Christ in heaven and is called and remains ever-Virgin and Mother of God.’
{In Hilda Graef, Mary: A history of Doctrine and Devotion, combined ed. of vols. 1 & 2, London: Sheed & Ward, 1965, vol.2, pp.14-5}
John Wesley (Founder of Methodism)
The Blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as when she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.
{”Letter to a Roman Catholic” / In This Rock, Nov. 1990, p.25}
See also:
Mary in Scripture
David’s experience with Mary
The Rosary
Is Mary a Pagan Goddess?
Do Catholics pray to Mary?
What’s this Co-Redemptrix nonsense?
Mary in the early Church and today
Some of the above from Nelson Pacheco from “Luther On Our Lady”.
Most of the Martin Luther quotes were found on Dave Armstrong’s site www.BiblicalCatholic.org
Lord Jesus, let Your prayer of unity for Christians
become a reality, in Your way
I am blessed to have a rescued two-year-old miniature poodle who is an absolute attention sink. He insists on play all the time, gets in the same trouble over and over (though he constantly acts as though it is completely innocent and new), and generally refuses to learn—or pretends not to learn.
The very worst thing to do to that little dog is ignore him. It drives him absolutely insane...he cannot bear it and just cries out for struggle for the sake of struggle.
Reminds me of something . . .
Oh boy oh boy is that a beautiful post.
You’ve stepped in it now!
I would bet only to the extent that Scripture is anti-Roman Catholic.... ;-)
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