Bad liturgy drives people away; embracing our heritage draws them back

The New Liturgical Movement ^ | May 30, 2007 | Jeffrey Tucker

[Frank Sheed]

Bad liturgy drives people away; embracing our heritage draws them back

posted by Jeffrey Tucker

Francis Beckwith was president of the Evangelical Theological Society, an association of 4,300 Protestant theologians. Now is he among the most famous "reverts" to Catholicism. In this interview, he provides a bracing look at what drove him away in the first place.

Looking back, and knowing what I know now, I believe that the Church’s weakness was presenting the renewal movements as something new and not part of the Church’s theological traditions.

For someone like me, who was interested in both the spiritual and intellectual grounding of the Christian faith, I didn’t need the “folk Mass” with cute nuns and hip priests playing “Kumbaya” with guitars, tambourines and harmonicas. And it was all badly done.

After all, we listened to the Byrds, Neil Young and Bob Dylan, and we knew the Church just couldn’t compete with them.

But that’s what the Church offered to the young people of my day: lousy pop music and a gutted Mass. If they were trying to make Catholicism unattractive to young and inquisitive Catholics, they were succeeding.

What I needed, and what many of us desired, were intelligent and winsome ambassadors for Christ who knew the intellectual basis for the Catholic faith, respected and understood the solemnity and theological truths behind the liturgy, and could explain the renewal movements in light of these.

Segue to the other topic of the moment: the classical Roman Rite, which today makes the op-ed page of the New York Times. John Allen examines the implications of the Motu Proprio and speculates that its short-term significance is far less than people on the right (Yeah, rollback!) or the left (Booo, rollback!) are predicting.

"Benedict, a quintessential realist, will probably be among the few who understand right away that his ruling is not terribly earth-shattering. Sources close to the pope I have spoken to say his modest ambition is that over time, the old Mass will exert a 'gravitational pull' on the new one, drawing it toward greater sobriety and reverence."

Most importantly, in my view, it will lead Catholics to once again embrace their heritage as their own, something that is connected to their present life and lives on in real time. Without a knowledge and embrace of our heritage, we are cut off and isolated, living in a strange alienation from our vast and glorious history. To me, the "gravitational pull" of which the unnamed source in the Vatican speaks is the most important implication of the Motu Proprio. It will pull together a tradition that has been effectively broken into two parts: pre- and post-1970. This is the most exciting thing about it, and why anyone would regard that as a threat is beyond me. It holds hold the prospect, over time, of achieving the continuity that Benedict and so many of us long for.

Posted by Jeffrey Tucker on title="permanent link">30.5.07   

[Frank Sheed]

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[Frank Sheed]

A classic John Allen quote:

That argument, too, depends on selective perception. While Benedict certainly wants to call the church back to some Catholic fundamentals, evidence of a systematic lurch to the right is hard to come by. This is the same pope, after all, who scandalized Catholic traditionalists by jettisoning limbo and by praying alongside the grand mufti of Istanbul inside the Blue Mosque in Turkey. On the political front, Benedict has demanded debt relief for impoverished nations, said that “nothing positive” has come from the United States-led war in Iraq, and denounced capitalism as an “ideological promise” that “has proven false.”

Quod erat demonstrandum.

[trisham]

John Allen seems to be in a bit of a snit over this departure from the post Vatican II mass. It’s odd, since I am not aware that there has been a call to end the Norvus Ordo. Am I wrong in this?

[trisham]

Excellent article, btw. :)

[onedoug]

Dennis Prager claims he’s usually bored to tears with liturgy and so reads Jewish books while in synagogue.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Dennis Prager claims he’s usually bored to tears with liturgy and so reads Jewish books while in synagogue.

Unfortunately, for all his political conservatism, Dennis Prager is not an Orthodox Jew, and he at one time was a militant member of the "peace camp" with regard to Israel.

The trouble with liturgy is that it so often descends into ritual pantomime. This is why the most highly ritualized religions are the most inclined to dismiss religious truths as highly abstract and expressed as metaphors rather than as facts. Thus Catholic and Orthodox priests have no difficulty in reciting words during their liturgies that refer to events they don't believe actually happened. In fact, a Catholic or Orthodox priest could be an agnostic and one would never know from his performance of the ritual, since a certain school of thought holds that religion is primarily ritual, with "myth" of only secondary importance.

"Jewish liturgy" doesn't really exist without the Holy Temple. Jews recite an order of prayers (and btw, it would be a serious sin to invoke an event that didn't really happened, or to thank G-d for doing something He only did in a fictional story). When the Holy Temple is rebuilt and the `Avodah resumed, then the world will witness genuine "Jewish liturgy" again!

[onedoug]

"Religions are known by their adherents."

I see Prager representing his well.

Next year in Jerusalem!

[Zionist Conspirator]

"Religions are known by their adherents."

The problem is he doesn't adhere to it, and he doesn't always represent it, as when he questions halakhot based on allegedly "superior" modern reasoning.

[onedoug]

Well, he's moved me from Christianity toward orthodox Judaism. Not clear on how he questions halakhot based on allegedly "superior" modern reasoning except to say that "Israel" means to struggle with God.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Well, he's moved me from Christianity toward orthodox Judaism. Not clear on how he questions halakhot based on allegedly "superior" modern reasoning except to say that "Israel" means to struggle with God.

Well, good for that, but you're not going to get the truly kosher position from him.

Orthodox Judaism does not hold that non-Jews are "fine just where they are" but that they must reject all other religions and subscribe to the Seven Noachide Laws (with all that that implies). Non-Jews must give up all false religions, rituals, and holidays and adhere only to true Noachism as interpreted by traditional Rabbinic Judaism. While Mr. Prager's teachings certainly contain parts of the truth there is also (unfortunately) much adulteration.

BTW, "struggling with G-d" doesn't mean "new" or "progressive" understanding of the Torah given by G-d to Moses. All such struggles must be done within the Torah as authentically passed down, taught, and interpreted by the traditional sages.

Only zoroastrians and bahais (so far as I know) teach that all religions are simultaneously true or that people should stay in the religion they were born into.

[onedoug]

Hopefully without seeming to belabour your points, how has Prager challenged halakhot based on allegedly "superior" modern reasoning.

[onedoug]

You might forgive however, that I guess I realized the bulk of my answer from your prior posts even as I posted that last.

[Frank Sheed]

Thanks, your Ladyship!

F

[ears_to_hear]

How could there be such a ting as “bad liturgy”? Don’t Catholics go to mass to see the sacrifice of Calvary and the “actual” body of Christ? Can anything be “bad” about that ?

Seems to me if it is what the catholic church says it is the very presence of God would draw millions by His presence. Music or no

[Frank Sheed]

What in the name of the Good Lord does Dennis Prager or Judaism have to do with a thread on the Tridentine Mass with the topics including Catholic Liturgy, Catholic Theology and the Tridentine Mass?

Hijack another thread, dudes!

[trisham]

What in the name of the Good Lord does Dennis Prager or Judaism have to do with a thread on the Tridentine Mass with the topics including Catholic Liturgy, Catholic Theology and the Tridentine Mass?

**************

Nothing?

[Zionist Conspirator]

Here is my original thread-specific post:

The trouble with liturgy is that it so often descends into ritual pantomime. This is why the most highly ritualized religions are the most inclined to dismiss religious truths as highly abstract and expressed as metaphors rather than as facts. Thus Catholic and Orthodox priests have no difficulty in reciting words during their liturgies that refer to events they don't believe actually happened. In fact, a Catholic or Orthodox priest could be an agnostic and one would never know from his performance of the ritual, since a certain school of thought holds that religion is primarily ritual, with "myth" of only secondary importance.

Why onedoug was here and why he invoked Dennis Prager I have no idea. Perhaps you should label this thread "Catholic Caucus" if you don't want non-Catholics to comment.

[Frank Sheed]

How could there be such a ting as “bad liturgy”? Don’t Catholics go to mass to see the sacrifice of Calvary and the “actual” body of Christ? Can anything be “bad” about that ?

I will take this in the "literal sense."

True, the Mass is an entering into the One and Eternal Sacrifice of Christ on Calvary which goes on "outside" of time. It is "bad liturgy" in the sense that it is sometimes celebrated irreverently or profaned by various practices that have crept into the Mass or done by the celebrant (e.g., Clown or Polka Masses; inviting people to the altar during the consecration who have no right to be there). In the broadest sense, your sense I take it, the Mass is always perfect. Even if the priest is in serious sin, the Mass is still valid since it is Christ who is the real High Priest acting through the priest and it is He who appears through the mystery of Transubstantiation. So, you do have a solid theological point.

Seems to me if it is what the catholic church says it is the very presence of God would draw millions by His presence. Music or no

This is true also. God is present, true. The profanation, however, is distracting and sacrilegious in that the Divine is being treated in a common fashion. This is the point that is being made. The Catholic maxim is "Legem credendi statuit lex orandi." This is Latin meaning “the rule of prayer determines the rule of faith. Or, more simply, how one prays demonstrates what one believes.

[Frank Sheed]

Post 16 was relevant. It commented on liturgy in a manner that contributed to general discussion. The tangent therefrom was not.

Frank Sheed