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To: DreamsofPolycarp
"Faith is a GIFT (Eph 2 :8,9) and NOT of ourselves precisely because it is the natural response of a man who has been MADE ALIVE (the theological term is regenerated, or what Jesus called being "born again") Just as the NATURAL response of the unregenerate is to remain in unbelief, so the NATURAL response of the regenerate man is to gladly embrace Christ."

There’s nothing in the Bible that says "born again" is a requirement for salvation.

The problem where you put "born again" is you make the person both lost and born again at the same time.

That does not happen - Only saved people are born again.

The first step God takes the person through is repentance. God does NOT use born again during the process of repentance.

The component God uses is CONVICTION !!

It’s only by the power of the Holy Spirit that a person is CONVICTED of their sins AND convicted they are a sinner.

The Holy Spirit convicts the person of judgment.

The Holy Spirit convicts the person of Jesus righteousness.

Therefore it’s by the power of CONVICTION the Holy Spirit uses to bring the person to a saving faith. Not being born again.

Now let’s take a look at the verse that speaks of born again (regeneration) ....

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Notice the above verse is a IF-THEN statement....

IF any man be in Christ, THEN he is a new creature:

The person must first be "in Christ".

"In Christ" means they already are identified in Christ’s death. Only saved people are "in Christ".

IF any man be in Christ, THEN he is a new creature:

Therefore the person is saved, THEN they become born again.

After being saved it’s born again that brings a new life to the person.

193 posted on 05/28/2007 9:06:51 PM PDT by KenTone
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To: KenTone
The first step God takes the person through is repentance. God does NOT use born again during the process of repentance

Dead people don't turn to Christ from their sin of unbelief. A natural man does not receive the things of the spirit of God. Indeed, He CANNOT, because they are spiritually perceived. An unregenerate man will no more repent than he will grow fins and swim underwater to china. He won't because he can't and the can't because he won't. You have a very low view of the effects of sin, and a very high view of your own abilities to respond to God. Both are unbiblical. The problem where you put "born again" is you make the person both lost and born again at the same time.

Lost me there, partner. I can't see that I have done any such thing.

Only saved people are born again.

Rather, only born again people are saved.

The component God uses is CONVICTION !! It’s only by the power of the Holy Spirit that a person is CONVICTED of their sins AND convicted they are a sinner.

A dead person cannot be savingly convicted of sin, although they can experience an ungodly sorrow for the consequences of sin and may feel something of the guilt of it. Hell, of course is slap full of that kind of "conviction." You make a huge and unbiblical assumption in stating that the human heart, under pressure from God's law, can change itself from a dead heart to a living one. This is, again, unbiblical. Only God gives a new heart. Faith follows (again, logically, if not temporally).

Therefore it’s by the power of CONVICTION the Holy Spirit uses to bring the person to a saving faith. Not being born again.

I am sorry. This statement is simply unbiblical and inconsistent with what the scripture says about the saving work of the Holy Spirit and the abysmal state of human nature. We are not "sick" according to scripture. We are "dead." Dead people cannot choose. They can only be brought to life.

II Cor 5:17 says nothing about the order of salvation. It simply states that if one is IN CHRIST (joined to him) then one is a new creature. The verse in fact could just as easily be predicating the first condition (being in Christ) on the last (being a new creature).

Your problem here is your unbiblical belief that dead people can respond to the offer of the gospel. I can share with you a boatload of scriptures which demonstate the opposite, if you wish.

195 posted on 05/28/2007 9:36:23 PM PDT by DreamsofPolycarp (Ron Paul in '08)
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To: KenTone
Your reply is really a rather classic illustration of what is called "Arminianism." A summary of the arminian view of the state of man is as follows:
Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation.

The orthodox and biblical counter to this runs more or less like this:

Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.
(hat tip to Thomas and Steele)

Again, I have a TRUCKLOAD of scriptures to demonstrate this teaching if you need em.

196 posted on 05/28/2007 9:46:46 PM PDT by DreamsofPolycarp (Ron Paul in '08)
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