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To: KenTone
The first step God takes the person through is repentance. God does NOT use born again during the process of repentance

Dead people don't turn to Christ from their sin of unbelief. A natural man does not receive the things of the spirit of God. Indeed, He CANNOT, because they are spiritually perceived. An unregenerate man will no more repent than he will grow fins and swim underwater to china. He won't because he can't and the can't because he won't. You have a very low view of the effects of sin, and a very high view of your own abilities to respond to God. Both are unbiblical. The problem where you put "born again" is you make the person both lost and born again at the same time.

Lost me there, partner. I can't see that I have done any such thing.

Only saved people are born again.

Rather, only born again people are saved.

The component God uses is CONVICTION !! It’s only by the power of the Holy Spirit that a person is CONVICTED of their sins AND convicted they are a sinner.

A dead person cannot be savingly convicted of sin, although they can experience an ungodly sorrow for the consequences of sin and may feel something of the guilt of it. Hell, of course is slap full of that kind of "conviction." You make a huge and unbiblical assumption in stating that the human heart, under pressure from God's law, can change itself from a dead heart to a living one. This is, again, unbiblical. Only God gives a new heart. Faith follows (again, logically, if not temporally).

Therefore it’s by the power of CONVICTION the Holy Spirit uses to bring the person to a saving faith. Not being born again.

I am sorry. This statement is simply unbiblical and inconsistent with what the scripture says about the saving work of the Holy Spirit and the abysmal state of human nature. We are not "sick" according to scripture. We are "dead." Dead people cannot choose. They can only be brought to life.

II Cor 5:17 says nothing about the order of salvation. It simply states that if one is IN CHRIST (joined to him) then one is a new creature. The verse in fact could just as easily be predicating the first condition (being in Christ) on the last (being a new creature).

Your problem here is your unbiblical belief that dead people can respond to the offer of the gospel. I can share with you a boatload of scriptures which demonstate the opposite, if you wish.

195 posted on 05/28/2007 9:36:23 PM PDT by DreamsofPolycarp (Ron Paul in '08)
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To: DreamsofPolycarp; KenTone
Your problem here is your unbiblical belief that dead people can respond to the offer of the gospel. I can share with you a boatload of scriptures which demonstate the opposite, if you wish.

I would like to see them --- because though scripture says that we are dead in our trespasses and sins, it never says that in that condition we are incapable of hearing the word of God.Calvinism on this point underestimates the power of the word of God through which the Holy Spirit works.

A whole lot of those "dead in their trespasses and sins" heard and responded to the Word of God during His earthly ministry. And they were commended for their faith in what He had to say.

Interestingly enough, medical science now knows that people in comas who cannot move, open their eyes, or do anything, can still hear the voices of those around their bed, and the hearing of those voices is often the turning point in their recovery.

A good question might be: When was Lazarus raised from the grave: before or after he heard the words: "Lazarus, come forth"?

199 posted on 05/29/2007 4:08:01 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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