“Hail Goddess full of grace”

“WOW -- coming from RC tradition I thought I’d never return to the Rosary. But here it is and here SHE IS. Blessed be, Mairly.”

The “here” in this message, found on herchurch.org, is Ebenezer Lutheran Church in San Francisco. But the SHE is not the Mother of God. SHE is “God/dess.”

On Wednesdays at 7 p.m., Ebenezer opens its sanctuary for the “Christian Goddess Rosary.” The church says it offers “Goddess Rosary Beads” and that “prayers and suggested meditations will be on hand as well as incense, candles and bells.”

“The Goddess rosary is grounded in traditions of the Christian Church and the proclamation of the gospel which is a vision of release from bondage for a new creation,” says the church’s web site.

The Goddess Rosary page on herchurch.org says that though “God as Father plays an important role” in Christian tradition, its “exclusive emphasis... contributes to a limited understanding of God, an understanding that supports a domination structure that oppresses and subordinates women.” Jesus used “Abba” as a “revolutionary deconstruction of domination structures of his day in both religious and social institutions.” The modern task is to do the same with “Goddess.”

Ebenezer, however, does not want to eradicate masculine images of God but to balance them with feminine images to “confront the biblical texts, products of their day and cultures, for the blatant patriarchal biases and misogynist attitudes.” And herchurch.org cites three Catholic theologians in support this confrontation: Harvard’s Elizabeth Schüssler Fiorenza, Fordham University’s Sister Elizabeth Johnson, and Rosemary Radford Ruether (who will lecture students in the course, “The History of God in Feminist Theological Discourse,” at LA’s Mount St. Mary’s College this spring.) Ruether calls the exclusive use of male imagery for God “idolatry.”

Herchurch.org offers a “Hail Goddess” prayer by feminist theologian Carol Christ, formerly of Harvard Divinity School but now director of the Ariadne Institute for Myth and Ritual in Greece. The prayer goes: “Hail Goddess full of grace. Blessed are you and blessed are all the fruits of your womb. For you are the MOTHER of us all. Hear us now and in all our needs. O blessed be, O blessed be. Amen.”

“I felt that I had stepped into a Presence, like a mother’s warm embrace,” wrote Dalyn Cook of Ebenezer’s Goddess Rosary. “The attendees were few in number, yet there was a sense of fullness in this welcoming space. I inhaled deeply the earthy scent of the incense, sending up delicate tendrils of smoke which curled around the altar in a nimbus visible against the warm rays of the evening sun filtering through the stained-glass windows....

“From the basket of rosaries, I took into my hand a strand of vibrantly-colored beads with a silver goddess icon in place of the traditional cross. The goddesses came in a variety of shapes and sizes, celebrating the beauty of the feminine form; I found reflections of my own figure in the full hips and Rubenesque curves of my goddess,” Cook wrote.

I don't think we will ever find anyone with whom we will agree 100% on everything. However, on matters of the Church, I don't believe the Apostles would have written the Epistles if they weren't looking to conform the churches to objective truth.

Which do you think is more important, conformity or the interaction between us as we work together to figure it out? I'm not saying there is no objective truth, because I believe there is. The Apostles were men, so why should I concern myself with their desires?

There are still great mysteries to be unraveled and a continuing revelation unfolding--much for us to discuss and discern... but upon the foundations of Christendom, we should be in agreement.

Despite all of the attempts by men to make that happen in the past, "heresies" erupt & it began before the foundations of Christendom were laid.

It's sad that, in truth, the Reformation split the Church doctrinally when Martin Luther's disagreements were more about ecclesiastical practices.

The division was already there. The Reformation brought the hardness of heart out into the light, where it could be seen & the community could begin to work together to try to break it down. Willful children that we are, we cling to our hardness of heart & try to prove that our differences are the other guys fault.

Back to the topic of the thread, Martin Luther had a very strong devotion to Mary. I'm not saying that she is to be elevated as this thread is noting, just that many here have called Catholics to the carpet for our devotions and said they are the sine qua non from which this elevation occurs. I merely point out that if veneration of Mary as the Theotokos were the issue of the Reformation, there wouldn't be protestants today.

I agree.

Which do you think is more important, conformity or the interaction between us as we work together to figure it out?

Depends. Conformity in the areas of settled doctrine and dogma. Interaction and working together (in cooperation with the Magisterium of the Church) in areas of unfolding revelation. It's very difficult to call all people to the Truth while acknowledging that no one can agree on what that Truth is. There have to common areas of settled doctrine. Thankfully, we have that with our Protestant brethren on about 95% of doctrine. Where we are not in conformity, we are called to lovingly reprove for the strength of the Church.

We were meant to be one Bride and I pray we will be again soon.

Depends? Dotting all of the "i's" & crossing all of the "t's" can sometimes more important than the way we feel about each other? Are we little more than salesmen, trying to make sure we have a worthy product for the market? What if our "product" is more like an invitation to join us in love, to work together with us in trying figuring it all out?

36 Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. 38 This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39 And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.

There have to common areas of settled doctrine. Thankfully, we have that with our Protestant brethren on about 95% of doctrine. Where we are not in conformity, we are called to lovingly reprove for the strength of the Church.

Think it's possible that process & product can be one & the same in any way?

We were meant to be one Bride and I pray we will be again soon.

Funny, that statement is within that 5% territory...

You have summed up the Catholic Gospel I wrote about in #302 nicely. Again, we are simply the Bride of Christ joined to the Family of God. We are one as He and the Father are One. Therefore, the whole Law and history are summed in loving God before all and loving our neighbors as ourselves--because they are our siblings under a loving Father. Just as you want your children to love one another, so does our Heavenly Father. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

Depends? Dotting all of the "i's" & crossing all of the "t's" can sometimes more important than the way we feel about each other?

I'm sorry you feel that way about doctrine and dogma. They illuminate the central reality. It's not about the punctuation, it's about our Life in Christ.

What I mean in pointing out that it's very difficult to call all people to the Truth while acknowledging that no one can agree on what that Truth is is that if we don't offer the Way, the Truth and the Life... what do we offer? There is real, hard and objective Truth. Where Christians can't agree on some of our core tenents hurts our message to the masses. We bicker like children.

You have summed up the Catholic Gospel I wrote about in #302 nicely.

I certainly can't take the credit for it...

Again, we are simply the Bride of Christ joined to the Family of God. We are one as He and the Father are One. Therefore, the whole Law and history are summed in loving God before all and loving our neighbors as ourselves--because they are our siblings under a loving Father.

Yep!

Just as you want your children to love one another, so does our Heavenly Father. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

Exactly right. It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that. I'm sorry you feel that way about doctrine and dogma. They illuminate the central reality. It's not about the punctuation, it's about our Life in Christ.

My point isn't about my "feelings" about doctrine and dogma, except when our striving to come to perfect understanding causes us to miss the message. Helping each other, working together, seeking perfection together should bring us together, not divide us. If it divides us we're doing something wrong. Division reveals hardness in our hearts. We're looking to ourselves, instead of looking to God.

What I mean in pointing out that it's very difficult to call all people to the Truth while acknowledging that no one can agree on what that Truth is is that if we don't offer the Way, the Truth and the Life... what do we offer?

He wants us to pretend that we have figured out all of the answers? We offer everything we are in love!

There is real, hard and objective Truth. Where Christians can't agree on some of our core tenents hurts our message to the masses. We bicker like children.

There is real, hard & objective Truth. Do we seek it together or do we beat each other over the head until people keep their disagreement to themselves, letting it fester & eat away at them.

I've enjoyed our conversation very much and don't want to beat this poor horse more than necessary... but I thought I would make one more point with you...

It takes time and effort in reading our Bible to learn about God and what He wants from us.

Yes... and the Catholic Church has been at it for 2000 years. There is much we admit we don't understand... we're only human... but we follow faithfully despite that and keep learning.

He wants intimacy with us.

Here's where I'm going to blow your mind and lose you altogether... but I'm going to try anyway.

If you've been in conversation with many Catholics on FR, you have probably come to realize that we view the events of Revelation as current history, not just future prophecy. The Wedding Feast of the Lamb occurred in real time when Jesus hung on the Cross as the New Covenant sacrifice (sacrifice has always been the central element to covenant formation). Bear in mind that covenants form families. So that was the Wedding Feast and the New Heaven and New Earth were inaugurated. The old passed away when the Jews rejected Jesus and their world ended in 70 AD... within the lifespan of the generation that crucified Jesus, as He had said it would. When we go to Mass each week, we are present in the Holy Gathering where the Lamb--Who appears as slain--offers Himself to God for our sins along with all believers, living and passed on to glory.

So you know that we see the Mass as the Wedding Feast real and present before us. However, when is a marriage consummated? It certainly isn't when the wedding is performed... at least not at the weddings I've attended... it's when the two who are joined become one flesh in love. We, the Body of Christ that is the Church, receive the essence of our Bridegroom when we receive His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Holy Eucharist.

Jesus wants a personal relationship with us, yes. But not the personal relationship we have with our neighbor or our barber--He wants the relationship of a Husband to his Bride. You want intimacy in Christ... THAT'S intimacy.

Once again, the Catholic Gospel in its simplicity is that the Church is the Bride of Christ... from there all other mysteries begin to make sense.

If it divides us we're doing something wrong.

Not necessarily.

Luke 12:51 "Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division; 52 for henceforth in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three; 53 they will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against her mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."

It could mean we're doing something right. God bless you and have a good weekend!

I know the eucharist is very important in the Catholic faith. Protestants do not believe that the eucharist is the body of Christ. We take communion in remembrance of Him. I believe God DOES want us to have intimacy with Him as we would a beloved friend as well as the husband and wife relationship. I have no problem with that at all. He loves us as His very own child and He is all things to all of us, including husband, friend, brother, sister, etc. I don’t think we can separate that.

I also don’t believe that most Catholics have been encouraged to read their own bibles but to have a priest interpret it during sermons, etc. I hope that’s changed but it certainly never used to be the case. My husband and his best friend, who was our pastor for 25 years, were both brought up in the Catholic church and many of my friends were Catholic when I was growing up. They were not encouraged to read scripture for themselves at that time. I do hope that’s different now.

There is much that is similar in both Catholic and Protestant denominations and we should never lose sight of that. We get separated when we insist on doctrinal differences. The time will come when those things won’t matter because we’ll be fighting for our very lives and God will be in the midst of it with us.

Sorry for a late response, I took a 48-hour "sabbatical" from the FR, just to remind myself there is life elsewhere. :)

Intent? You know what people have in their hearts?

No, that is known but to them and God. We know when our intent in ungodly. If we presume otherwise, then we should all go to heaven.

We seem to be pretty good at that, creating problems Our favorite past time.

Pray for them [people prostrating for Mary but not for Holy Trinity)?

No! If a priest were to pray for them, he would have already judged them. Their intent is not to offend God.

but wouldn't know where to begin in doing the same with any of the Orthodox churches in my area

Ask any of the above pinged people, or me, if you so choose. They are all wonderful orthodox Christians (I am more like Leo Tolstoy, you might say, somewhat pigheaded).

I was married in a Roman Catholic church, back when a marriage included a full Mass

Imagine that! Good news is, we Orthodox still do. Our Catholic brothers and sisters used to be Orthodox too, and many are rediscovering the beauty of being Orthodox again, after so many centuries. :)

I'll never forget the looks of shocked horror at my questioning my exclusion from partaking in the Eucharist. That which is a spiritual hospital to you comes with some rather high immovable barriers for me

Well, they did the right thing. The Eucharist is not a means to achieving, but an expression of theological union. Since the Eastern Orthodox Churches still have several rather serious theological disagreements with the Church in Rome, neither can we nor can the Latins partake of each others Eucharist.

Pope Benedict XVI was received at the Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarchy in Istanbul, Turkey, as primus inter pares (first among equals), but because he doesn't teach orthodox doctrine, neither did he nor did any of his entourage partake in the Eucharist, and they knew not to ask for it.

I can’t help but see the short link from worshiping Mary to worshiping a goddess. And please don’t tell me Mary isn’t worshiped. She’s prayed to, sung to, feasted, adored, festooned with flowers, etc. What is that if not worship?

Here is how I have always seen it: I believe in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe in life beyond this world because of God's redemptive plan of salvation. Therefore heaven is a communion of people who are alive. That includes the Blessed Virgin.

Now, God taught us to pray and it is considered a moral good to pray for each other. I pray for you and you pray for me. Why not ask prayer from the people who have made it? Those who have fought the fight and finished the race? Mary was at the foot of the Cross. Why would I not want her to pray for me and intercede for me? Who is closer to Jesus than her?

If you look at any authentic Roman Catholic prayer you will see that it is one of intercession and not worship. There is an abundance of evidence of this from the CCC to a simple prayer books. Check it out.

Why not ask prayer from the people who have made it?
= = =

BECAUSE

NO WHERE

IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

DID CHRIST, THE LIVING WORD, unequivocally so instruct His followers.

AND

There are several points in the NT where The Father seems to go to extra lengths to insist that HIS SON ALONE IS WORTHY; HIS SON ALONE IS SUPREME INTERCESSOR.

And going to lessers WHEN GOD ALMIGHTY INSTRUCTS US CLEARLY TO GO TO THE SUPREME INTERCESSOR

IS MUCH MORE

than a little

CHEEKY.

It COULD be construed as insulting or even rebellion or blasphemy.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

You have an only child—a son. The apple of your eye.

He grows up very obediently. He goes to college and performs with honors . . . going off to the Navy as an officer where he distinguishes himself in several battles.

He comes home after 6 years ready to join you in the family firm. You make clear to him, being at least 10% as well heeled as Bill Gates, that IF he has any need whatsoever, he is to come to you directly. That it is your delight to serve him and train him directly.

After about 6 months, you are hearing reports from all over that he is going to your secretary; to his uncle; to the janitor; to your personal valet; to your driver; to the gardner; to your wife—his mother; to your sister; to his grandmother; seemingly he’s going to everyone under the sun but to you. But you know your instructions were very clear—that he was to come DIRECTLY TO YOU. THAT IT WAS YOUR DELIGHT TO HEAR HIS REQUESTS AND MEET THEM.

But he seems to want to have none of it.

And your feelings and attitude would be?

because NO WHERE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT DID CHRIST, THE LIVING WORD, unequivocally so instruct His followers. AND There are several points in the NT where The Father seems to go to extra lengths to insist that HIS SON ALONE IS WORTHY; HIS SON ALONE IS SUPREME INTERCESSOR.

Amen.

"That God's word damns your ceremonies it is evident; for the plain and straight commandment of God is, 'Not that thing which appears good in thy eyes shalt thou do to the Lord thy God, but what the Lord thy God has commanded thee; that do thou; add nothing to it; diminish nothing from it.' Now unless you are able to prove that God has commanded your ceremonies, this his former commandment will damn both you and them." -- John Knox (Knox, Works, 1:199. Cf. Calvin, The Necessity of Reforming the Church, in Tracts, 1:128-29.)

And for good measure...

"The Bible is thought of as authoritative on everything of which it speaks. Moreover, it speaks of everything. We do not mean that it speaks of football games, of atoms, etc., directly, but we do mean that it speaks of everything either directly or by implication. It tells us not only of the Christ and his work, but it also tells us who God is and where the universe about us has come from. It tells us about theism as well as about Christianity. It gives us a philosophy of history as well as history. Moreover, the information on these subjects is woven into an inextricable whole. It is only if you reject the Bible as the word of God that you can separate the so-called religious and moral instructions of the Bible from what it says, e.g., about the physical universe." -- Cornelius Van Til, Christian Apologetics (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., 1976), p.2.

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