Posted on 04/25/2007 6:54:31 AM PDT by NYer
“WOW -- coming from RC tradition I thought I’d never return to the Rosary. But here it is and here SHE IS. Blessed be, Mairly.”
The “here” in this message, found on herchurch.org, is Ebenezer Lutheran Church in San Francisco. But the SHE is not the Mother of God. SHE is “God/dess.”
On Wednesdays at 7 p.m., Ebenezer opens its sanctuary for the “Christian Goddess Rosary.” The church says it offers “Goddess Rosary Beads” and that “prayers and suggested meditations will be on hand as well as incense, candles and bells.”
“The Goddess rosary is grounded in traditions of the Christian Church and the proclamation of the gospel which is a vision of release from bondage for a new creation,” says the church’s web site.
The Goddess Rosary page on herchurch.org says that though “God as Father plays an important role” in Christian tradition, its “exclusive emphasis... contributes to a limited understanding of God, an understanding that supports a domination structure that oppresses and subordinates women.” Jesus used “Abba” as a “revolutionary deconstruction of domination structures of his day in both religious and social institutions.” The modern task is to do the same with “Goddess.”
Ebenezer, however, does not want to eradicate masculine images of God but to balance them with feminine images to “confront the biblical texts, products of their day and cultures, for the blatant patriarchal biases and misogynist attitudes.” And herchurch.org cites three Catholic theologians in support this confrontation: Harvard’s Elizabeth Schüssler Fiorenza, Fordham University’s Sister Elizabeth Johnson, and Rosemary Radford Ruether (who will lecture students in the course, “The History of God in Feminist Theological Discourse,” at LA’s Mount St. Mary’s College this spring.) Ruether calls the exclusive use of male imagery for God “idolatry.”
Herchurch.org offers a “Hail Goddess” prayer by feminist theologian Carol Christ, formerly of Harvard Divinity School but now director of the Ariadne Institute for Myth and Ritual in Greece. The prayer goes: “Hail Goddess full of grace. Blessed are you and blessed are all the fruits of your womb. For you are the MOTHER of us all. Hear us now and in all our needs. O blessed be, O blessed be. Amen.”
“I felt that I had stepped into a Presence, like a mother’s warm embrace,” wrote Dalyn Cook of Ebenezer’s Goddess Rosary. “The attendees were few in number, yet there was a sense of fullness in this welcoming space. I inhaled deeply the earthy scent of the incense, sending up delicate tendrils of smoke which curled around the altar in a nimbus visible against the warm rays of the evening sun filtering through the stained-glass windows....
“From the basket of rosaries, I took into my hand a strand of vibrantly-colored beads with a silver goddess icon in place of the traditional cross. The goddesses came in a variety of shapes and sizes, celebrating the beauty of the feminine form; I found reflections of my own figure in the full hips and Rubenesque curves of my goddess,” Cook wrote.
You are most welcome. I hope that clarified my brevity.
Heb 4:11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And before him no creature is hidden, but all are open and laid bare to the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Again, the Word is a person--Jesus Christ--not just a book.
The Protestant Gospel is one of contradictions and legalism. You say that what Christ did on the Cross was complete and sufficient and there is nothing that we are to add to it. Yet in the next breath you say that we are to believe. I'm sorry, but that is adding something to what Christ did on the Cross--your faith. If the Cross was wholly sufficient on its own, we are all saved regardless of our faith because God and man are reconciled. I know you will deny this contradiction, it is after all central to your point of view, but you can argue with St Paul who said...
Col 1:19 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. 21 And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. 24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the divine office which was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now made manifest to his saints. 27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we proclaim, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man mature in Christ.
Paul isn't saying that Christ didn't suffer long enough--that if He'd just held on an hour or two longer we wouldn't need to suffer. No. He's recognizing a central truth that St Augustine recognized, that what happens to the head of the body, must be reproduced in the members of the body. So what Christ suffered on the Cross in His Own Body, He then completes in applying that suffering to His Mystical Body, The Church. It isn't that Christ's suffering wasn't sufficient, it's that it was so sufficient it can be reproduced effectively in us. Just as Peter acknowledges; 1 Peter 1:17 And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.
Just as we don't delight in the accomplishments of the neighbor kids, our works were as nothing to God before our reconciliation. And just as the neighbor kids can't make themselves part of my family--I have to adopt them--we couldn't reconcile ourselves to God. Now, God does delight and reward our deeds done in His Name. Christ merited for us the ability to merit from God.
There is one place in the Bible (at least a Bible not edited by Martin Luther) where you can find "faith" and "alone" together. It is in James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. The Protestant perspective can't deal with this Biblical reality... so it tends to ignore it.
Martin Luther said that justification is a legal act of juridical imputation whereby a criminal is acquitted.
Yes, we're acquitted... but what for and how? We are acquitted for life in the Family of God. How? We are made part of God's Holy Family through the New Covenant sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. He was at once priest, sacrifice and Bridegroom. He is mediator of the New Covenant... the one who forged the bond between God and man. What He did was sufficient and complete--we are reconciled to God--but it was the beginning. Just as birth is the beginning of our Earthly lives, Baptism in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is the beginning of our life in Christ. It is not the culmination from which there is no more to be done, it is the beginning from which all else is possible. We're not just sinners being saved, we're sons and daughters being restored to God's Family.
I will tell you the Catholic Gospel in its full simplicity: The Church is the Bride of Christ.
That's it. Nothing more. From this comes the wealth of the faith for understanding our Bridegroom, His Holy Family, the Sacraments and His sacrificial offering that is His wedding feast--but the simplicity of the message is resoundingly clear throughout the Bible for those who will see it.
We know we are members of God's Family the same way our own children know they are members of our families: they share your name, take your discipline, eat at your table, grow to adulthood in your home and are sent to the world in a vocation. When they are sick, you will comfort them and when they are dying, you will be there (if you can be). The same is true of God’s Family here on Earth: we take on His Name in Baptism, we are disciplined and shown mercy in Reconciliation, we eat at His Table in the Eucharist, we grow to our adulthood in Confirmation and are sent to the world in our vocations of Matrimony or Holy Orders. When we are sick or dying, we are attended to by the Church with Extreme Unction. We are the Family of God.
Your challenge of the proof-text from Ephesians is sad really. If you had read the rest of the chapter in context, you might have understood better the Catholic perspective:
Ephesians 6:4 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. 5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ; 6 not in the way of eye-service, as men-pleasers, but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, 7 rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to men, 8 knowing that whatever good any one does, he will receive the same again from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free. 9 Masters, do the same to them, and forbear threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him. 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the equipment of the gospel of peace; 16 besides all these, taking the shield of faith, with which you can quench all the flaming darts of the evil one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 19 and also for me, that utterance may be given me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak.
From you: Well good...You know who the Word of God is...Obviously, you don't hold any reverence for the 'word' of God...
Hardly.
Yes, works are important, after faith in Christ. He says faith without works is dead and works without faith is dead. Our faith in Christ is the lynchpin but we ARE commanded to do good works in His name. How can you NOT do them.
Our church most definitely believes that we are part of the Bride of Christ. I know I am! Yes, the Word is Jesus Christ and is living. No argument on either one of these points.
I think you misunderstand a lot of protestant (read non-catholic) beliefs. We’re on the same page on most things,at least those that are scriptural. Blessings, Maryxxx
That's quite a stretch...Believing God and bringing your own righteousness to God are a far cry from being the same thing...You can believe they are the same if you'd like...I won't...
If the Cross was wholly sufficient on its own, we are all saved regardless of our faith because God and man are reconciled. I know you will deny this contradiction, it is after all central to your point of view, but you can argue with St Paul who said...
Col 1:19 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. 21 And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. 24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
Here's the verse in the KJV...Quite a little twist from what your version says...The verse says that Paul welcomes more suffering since although Christ provided a thorn in Paul's flesh, he desired more suffering...Says nothing about Jesus not suffering enough...
So what Christ suffered on the Cross in His Own Body, He then completes in applying that suffering to His Mystical Body, The Church.
Where do you get that the church is a mystical body??? And whatever does that mean???
The formation of the church was a mystery, until it presence was revealed by Paul...
It isn't that Christ's suffering wasn't sufficient, it's that it was so sufficient it can be reproduced effectively in us.
That's not scriptural...Unless you are talking spiritually as in the Spiritual baptism whereby we die, are buried and raised again in baptism...
Just as we don't delight in the accomplishments of the neighbor kids, our works were as nothing to God before our reconciliation. And just as the neighbor kids can't make themselves part of my family--I have to adopt them--we couldn't reconcile ourselves to God. Now, God does delight and reward our deeds done in His Name. Christ merited for us the ability to merit from God.
Good analogy, for my position...Salvation takes place when the child agrees to be adopted...You don't give back adopted children...You do however, reward good kids just as Jesus will reward good Christians...
There is one place in the Bible (at least a Bible not edited by Martin Luther) where you can find "faith" and "alone" together. It is in James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. The Protestant perspective can't deal with this Biblical reality... so it tends to ignore it.
I can't defend Protestants who chose not to believe the word of God...But because they don't believe all of the bible doesn't make your interpretation correct either...You'll notice Paul taught the church that Faith without works is what was attributed to Abraham...Regardless of what James said...
Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
So we can't be justified by works and faith in one place and jusfified by faith only in another place...And you can't run them together...
Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) Gal 1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Phm 1:1 Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellow laborer, Phm 1:2 And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church in thy house:
Jam 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Where's the church??? Where's the beloved??? They're not here...Where are the Getiles Paul was commissioed to preach to??? Gone...This is a different group of people...These are all Jews...
The church was taught faith without works...The twelve tribes of Israel are taught faith AND works...
Until people get this, the bible will be mystical to them...
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
You are confusing the fruits of the Spirit which come with regeneration, to man's wilfull behavior. No matter what you do on your own initiative, you can't please God.
When an unsaved person gives alms to the poor,and pats himself on the back and says "I am a good person" he has his reward.
Amen to that...
Well, if we can't even agree on a Bible translation and will throw quotes at one another of the same passage... we're not going to get far. I would ask you, though, to tell me what it means to you to "fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ." Just looking for a plain English translation.
The formation of the church was a mystery, until it presence was revealed by Paul...
So you believe that the rest of Apostles didn't know about the Church until Paul came along after years of persecution to educate them? Didn't they receive the same Spirit?
Salvation takes place when the child agrees to be adopted...
Indeed... and Paul just couldn't wait for the churches he taught to be adopted...Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (KJV... in your honor)
So we can't be justified by works and faith in one place and jusfified by faith only in another place...And you can't run them together...
Truly, that is a big contradiction... if you don't understand it. Paul was, in most places, not talking about works of charity and mercy... as James was. In nearly all places he references "works", he is talking about the Law. There is no contradiction, only a difference in subject matter. That you see contradiction, should tell you to seek another answer...You'll notice Paul taught the church that Faith without works is what was attributed to Abraham...Regardless of what James said... So now you propose to disprove James?! Talk about arrogance! You may disagree with the Church's interpretation but at least we read the whole Bible.
The church was taught faith without works...The twelve tribes of Israel are taught faith AND works...
I can only pray that the Lord would open the eyes of those who will not see. Amen.
Where are you finding instructions for us to use the Sword against one another if & when we disagree?
What does it mean to "believe" in your interpretation? Most Protestants seem to take the passive approach that belief is of the mind and heart. I would say the Church adds the physical approach such that it isn't enough to confess that you believe... you have to obey. 1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing: but the observance of the commandments of God. We are called to obedience. But not the obedience of slaves and servants, the obedience of sons. We reap not the wages of laborers but the inheritance of family.
Abraham followed God from Ur and had a personal relationship with Him for decades before his flesh was marked. Even so, he was commanded to sacrifice his only son to God. He wasn't stopped by the angel at the point of agreement, he was stopped in the attempt. At this, God made His Covenant with Abraham which He fulfilled in Christ.
When we tell our children to get up and go to school it isn't enough that they look at us and "believe" and agree that that would be a good thing--they have to obey! What then are we to do in our belief? These are the works of charity and mercy and we have been given the Sacraments to strengthen us in our labors. When Christ said, "Do this in remembrance of me", we do just as He did and it is made real at the power of His Word as it was when He first accomplished it. This is what "remembrance" meant to the Jews at Passover. It wasn't just a memory they were recalling, they were reliving and making the event real in their homes and hearts. We do the same in the Eucharist and Christ is really and truly present in His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity as He was at the Last Supper.
We obey His commands.
No, I don't. It's just that so many protestants don't agree with each other. See Iscool's posts and see if you agree with him...
Thank you for your rational conversation.
We believe, and the bible tells us, that faith is a gift of God, and doesn't come from us. There is where you stumble
Our divisions are something which makes the hardness of our hearts public. See Christ's teaching on divorce. Only He has the power to create full unity. Pretending there is unity where there is none doesn't cut it for us. We need Him & awaite His coming to set things to right.
See Iscool's posts and see if you agree with him...
It is proper to ping someone to a post if you talk about them.
No offense meant just noting a perceived disconnect.
So you say... but you didn't address the issue.
yet... here is a protestant church, now using a goddess in their worship(?!).....
the very same thing they have always accused Christ’s true church in rome of promulgating...
unbelievable....
Over the years? You just joined in January.
I don't think we will ever find anyone with whom we will agree 100% on everything. However, on matters of the Church, I don't believe the Apostles would have written the Epistles if they weren't looking to conform the churches to objective truth.
There are still great mysteries to be unraveled and a continuing revelation unfolding--much for us to discuss and discern... but upon the foundations of Christendom, we should be in agreement. It's sad that, in truth, the Reformation split the Church doctrinally when Martin Luther's disagreements were more about ecclesiastical practices. Back to the topic of the thread, Martin Luther had a very strong devotion to Mary. I'm not saying that she is to be elevated as this thread is noting, just that many here have called Catholics to the carpet for our devotions and said they are the sine qua non from which this elevation occurs. I merely point out that if veneration of Mary as the Theotokos were the issue of the Reformation, there wouldn't be protestants today.
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