Posted on 04/12/2007 12:23:10 PM PDT by topcat54
Let me ask you a question....maybe I am misunderstanding your perspective.
Are you saying that resurrected spirit beings (immortals) cannot instruct mortals? If so....why?
During the millennium I believe much instruction, governing and general supervision will be the task of those individuals who took part in the first resurrection. These are the folks referred to as being blessed because of their participation [Revelation 20:6]. They are also now called Holy....signifying their citizenship in The Kingdom of God.
I believe initially the Earth will be about the same during this 1000 year period, but because mankind will be living according to the Laws of God many things will gradually adjust over time. Men and women (mortals) will continue to exist in their human form. They will have children, will grow old and they will die. Maybe....just maybe, they will grow older slower and perhaps begin to live much longer. It was not unusual for the folks from Adam to Noah to live well past 900 years.
If mankind is being instructed in God's ways, God's Laws and God's nourishment.....it would be rare that we would see a child born with some type of defect. It would be rare when we saw a horrible disease spread throughout the world, killing innocent victims. It would be rare when we heard of a friend or acquaintance contracting a deadly cancer. And this would be only shortly into the millennium when mankind is beginning to reap the benefits of doing things God's way.
Longer into the millennium these things I have mentioned may probably be non existent. During this time many folks (mortals) will be coming to The Lord....much as they do today. I guess the only thing that will be different is the first hand evidence of God's Kingdom here on Earth.....and this will indeed be a very convincing argument for future membership.
Because of this, many will become priests themselves and thus I can see priests during the Millennium being both resurrected beings.....as well as mortals (novices if you will).
As you can tell, I'm soooo confused. I can't figure out the who, what, when and where.
Much of what I'm saying is conjecture on my part. I sure don't have all the answers. I only believe that the resurrected beings reigning here on Earth with Our Lord for 1000 years will be reigning over......(someone?).
I didn't think the two different bodies (mortal / immortal) would be able to see each other unless they were both in the same type of body. I thought you said those that didn't make the first resurrection would still be flesh. 1Cori.15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Is this not saying that the two, flesh and immortal, are not on the same level, or in the same dimension?
Perhaps it would be easier to tell you what I thought scripture told us about those times (at least until you told me otherwise). Once I detail it you may know why and where we differ.
I believe that at the 2nd Advent ALL change, ALL are in spirit, or incorruptible bodies (1Cori.15:51). Some of those (Rom.11:4) will be part of the 1st resurrection and therefore are immortal (Rev.20:5). The others, who are now in an incorruptible body (at least through the millennium) are NOT immortal - they are still liable to die, (considered spiritually dead), in the lake of fire at the end of the millennium. (1Cori 15:53)tells us that we must put on incorruption (flesh is gone at the 2nd. advent and we are all in spirit - we have put on incorruption).
The immortal ones, the 7,000 (Rom11:4) priests who reign with Christ, will instruct the 144,000 (Ez.44:23)and they in turn teach the mortal ones. All are in spirit (or, as I thought, soul), or incoruptible bodies. The priest, who minister to Christ, are not allowed to go near the spiritually dead, except for family members (Ez.44:25).
The 144,000. Those that fell for Satan's deceit in end times but returned and were sealed to God before the 2nd Advent. Because they did follow Satan there is a price they must pay:
Rev.7:4.And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel
14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth
Ezekiel 44:11 Yet they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the People, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.
12. Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up Mine hand against them, saith the Lord God, and they shall bear their iniquity.
13.And they shall not come near unto Me to do the office of a priest unto Me, nor to come near to any of My holy things, in the most holy place; but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.
The 7,000 - God's elect who will become Priest with Christ.
Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."
That is how I thought it would be. All in spirit, the good, bad and ugly but some, the elect, are immortal while all others are considered spritually dead. Those will be taught without any evil influence from Satan. At the end of the millennium Satan will be released for a short time and those that have been taught will then be proven. God comes to earth and the great white throne judgment takes place - lake of fire and then eternity.
So, I had it all nice and tidy in my mind until you threw a scriptural monkey wrench into it. I'm sure I'm making understanding your perspective on this more difficult than is necessary but because I had this preconceived idea it is difficult to let go of it and replace it with yours. I think I'll spend the next few days laying your thoughts out, using the information you have given and compare the two.
I keep thinking I see what you mean but then something comes up (probably an old idea I won't let go of) and I think it can't be. I'll keep thinking about it.
Your friend.......Ping
Ezekiel 47 (below) tells us there will be children while Matthew, Mark and Luke (below) tell us there will be "no giving and taking in marriage", which I take to mean "no children".
All these scriptures have to be about being either in the millennium or the eternity but either way, Matthew, Mark and Luke seem to only be concerned with those that made the resurrection. Are they speaking about those that made the first only or the second too? If speaking of those that made the first resurrection only then would those that didn't make it be the ones having children (as you stated)? If that is true, what about Ezekiel where he speaks of children. They are either in the millennial temple or in the eternity so they made the resurrection (I'm not sure of the timeline there), but they have children. Why the discrepency? What am I not understanding? They seem to contradict each other.
Ezekiel 47:22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
This takes place in the eternity or millennium and some are having children. If it is in the eternity, as I believe it is then they are all "of the resurrection". Matthew, Mark and Luke (below) tell us there won't be children.
Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36.Neither can they die anymore: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto Him.
Any ideas???...........Ping
The Father has allotted mankind 7000 years to prove to them they cannot govern themselves without divine guidance. The last 1000 years of this cycle will be absolute proof as Our Lord and Saviour will be reigning with resurrected Saints [Revelation 20:6]. It will be so obvious as to the correctness of God's ways that a human being would have to be pure evil as to not admit it.
The resurrected Saints will be composed of those who died in Christ.....or were changed [1 Corinthians 15:50-52] at his advent. These will be those reigning with him....for a thousand years.....over mortal human beings.
Mankind will still be finishing their 7000 year stint on this physical Earth....only now, with divine guidance and without the evil influence of Satan. So....because they are still human....in a training phase so to speak, they will still be composed of flesh and blood and therefore be mortal and subject to death. They will also be subject to normal human wants and desires....which will include marriage and procreation.
Ezekiel 47 (below) tells us there will be children while Matthew, Mark and Luke (below) tell us there will be "no giving and taking in marriage", which I take to mean "no children".
I've always thought that [Ezekiel 47:7-12] shows us the "Dead Sea" coming back to life in the Millennium and the general change in Mankind's habitat. I'm sure much of this is to do with living God's way and obeying God's Laws. Yes, verse 22 shows folks still having children during the 1000 years. I believe the passages in the Gospels referring to "no giving and taking of marriage" is about the resurrected Saints in their immortal bodies who are reigning with Our Lord during this time.
I believe I stated earlier somewhere that during the 1000 years mankind's life span will begin to lengthen again because of the obedience to God's Laws....both physical and moral. So, humans after a few centuries of living with the guidance from Our lord and the resurrected Saints will begin to approach those prior to Abraham with regards to lifespans. This will be more proof yet of what obeying God will do for mankind....and of course, it will be all the easier without Satan's influence.
After the 1000 years there will be more resurrections. The folks who lived on this Earth who never heard the Name of Our Messiah, folks who lived prior to Our Messiah and folks who lived hearing the name of Our Messiah...but were influenced by incorrect doctrine, human theology and the corruptness of mankind. All these folks will be taught God's Laws and His ways. This will be the second resurrection [Revelation 20:4-5] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished). This is the first resurrection.
Also participating in a second general resurrection will be those folks who lived, were born and died during the millennium...those receiving proper instruction and doctrine from the resurrected Saints and Our Lord [Hebrews 9:27]. Then "The Great White Throne Judgment" and after this, we will enter eternity.
I am still going back and forth between everyone going into a spiritual body at His coming (some being part of the first resurrection and the others considered spiritually dead) or your interpretation of only His elect taking part in the first resurrection while others continue on in their mortal bodies.
I had hopes that my question about having children might settle it but it doesn't. Ez.47:22 you see as being during the 1,000 years but I read it as definitely speaking of the time of the eternity. If I'm correct everyone at that time would have been resurrected into eternal life. As Matthew and Mark state at that time there will be no giving and taking in marriage I see it as an inconsistency for children to be mentioned.
I've come to the conclusion that it is something I may never be able to understand and will just have to wait to see what happens. Will all of us become incorruptible while some also put on immortality or will only some of us reach that state?
I suppose it matters so much to me as it is part of how I warn others about end times. I tell them that if there is any question of the one standing in Jerusalem saying he is Christ actually being Christ or the fake, it can be solved by pinching yourself. If you are still flesh then it is the fake. I can't say that with assurance if everyone doesn't change into an incorruptible body at the 2nd Advent.
I'll keep thinking about it but now I see it as being possible either way. Probably, because it is how I was first taught, I will lean more toward the scriptures about this subject as being about spirtually alive and dead, not physically, but I'll keep studying.
Thank you for your help with this...........Ping
There are some that believe He is asking Father to keep Him from what is about to happen. Others, including me, believe He is speaking about Rev.14:10:
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Which is it? What is that cup Jesus asked Father to take away?
One of the things that is helpful in attempting to understand scripture is.....context. If we're look at the 10th verse we should probably check 9 and 11 also. [Revelation 14:9-11] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand. The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Cup) Strong's #4221. poterion (pot-ay'-ree-on)a drinking-vessel; by extension, the contents thereof, i.e. a cupful (draught); figuratively, a lot or fate. This Greek word is used both in Mark 14 and Revelation 14. It means basically "Fate". In Revelation 14 it is talking about (Indignation) Strong's #3709. orge (or-gay')desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or (justifiable) abhorrence); by implication punishment. So, from reading the Greek, it is fairly certain this cup spoken in Revelation is the fate of punishment. To whom? Those who worship the Beast.
Our Lord knew that He was the Messiah. He knew that he would suffer. He knew He was to be the Passover. He knew that this entailed blood sacrifice. Yet.....knowing all of this and the "Fate" that awaited Him in a very few hours His humanity asked if it (fate) could pass, but He still told the father...... "What Thou wilt".
Our Lord was as human as you and me [Hebrews 2:17;4:15]. His sweat was like great drops of blood [Luke 22:44] falling to the ground as He prayed. Three times He asked if this cup could pass from him [Matthew 26:39-44]. We know what the answer to his prayer(s) was. He must suffer.
Right from the beginning God demanded a blood sacrifice for sin. The first instance of this occurs in [Genesis 3:21] Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. These innocent animals had died because of the original sin....to cover mankind as it were.
When mankind sinned they became subject to the penalty for sin....which is death [Romans 6:23]. But Our Lord and Saviour paid the penalty for us [1 Peter 1:19-20][Matthew 26:28]. He knew that this would be his fate (sacrifice).... but yet he asked anyway if it were possible to remove this cup(fate). He was greatly distressed and troubled.....and as human as you and me.
I've pinged a couple of other posters whom have opinions I value.... and perhaps they can add some thoughts to this question.
Why do you think he was referring to Revelation 14:10?
I agree with much of your reasoning in that He knew He would suffer, would become the Passover and that it entailed blood sacrifice. He knew that "the hour is come" (Mk14:41).
Because He knew it was time, where all the pieces of the puzzle were about to be put into place, would He ask for His fate to be taken from Him? You stated, "His humanity asked if it (fate) could pass, but He still told the father...... "What Thou wilt". Could He separate the human part far enough from the divine part to ask Father that the plan not be fulfilled?
So, from reading the Greek, it is fairly certain this cup spoken in Revelation is the fate of punishment. To whom? Those who worship the Beast.
I believe that cup is one and the same. The cup Jesus wished to be taken from Him and the cup of wrath that will be poured out on those that fall for Satan's deceit and follow him, even on those that did so believing it was Christ. That is their fate.
Why do you think he was referring to Revelation 14:10?
Because He is the one that pours that wrath out.`Rev.14:
14. And I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and upon the cloud One sat like unto the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown and in His hand a sharp sickle.
I believe that will be the event that He asked to pass from Him:
Mark 14:35 And He went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from Him.
So, was it the hour that would bring about the suffering to His flesh body, or the hour in which He would pour out the wrath of God that He prayed to Father about?
Three TIMES a year, which are composed of multiple holy days.
Exo 34:23 "Three times a year all your males are to appear before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel.
This can be confusing, but think of it as three general time periods. The spring feasts, Pentecost and the fall feasts. The spring and fall holy days occur so close together that when people observed them in the past they went and stayed for the whole thing. For example, all of the fall holy days (trumpets, atonement, tabernacles first day,last great day) fall in a three week or so period. In biblical times Gods' people would gather and stay for the entire period rather than going through the often long journey of going home and returning.
It would be a difficult journey (no hotels or McDonald's on the way).
Seriously, why did God require those times? I believe He wanted His children there at Passover to see the crucifixion. At Pentecost to see the Holy Spirit descend and touch people so they knew what Joel had spoken of.
Why the Feast of Tabernacles?
........Ping
My belief and understanding is that the holy days not only forsaw these events, but that they are useful for understanding God's overall plan for salvation on both a global and individual basis.
For example, a believers very first step in the salvational process is the acceptance of the Lord's passover, the sacrifice of Christ for the forgiveness of sin.
The days of unleavened bread where leavening is put out of homes represents what we should be doing in our Christian walk, identifying and removing sin from our lives.
Pentecost pictures Christians as the firstfruits of God's salvation "harvest".
Why the Feast of Tabernacles?
The fall festival season consists of the feast of trumpets, the day of atonement and the feast of tabernacles. All of these foretell events yet to happen. Trumpets pictures the return of Christ at the last trumpet. Atonement pictures the binding and removal of Satan and his influence. Tabernacles pictures the millenium when there will be a thousand year physical, earthly kingdom ruled by Christ.
Suggested reading: God's Holy Day Plan
Thank you for that explanation and for the link.
I look forward to spending time at your “suggested reading” site.
........Ping
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