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To: xzins
Now, we know that every eye will see him. And we also know that not one apostle and not one writer of the early church reported this happened. They didn't even know about it.

And the partial preterist would affirm that when Christ returns in the full consumation of His Kingdom and in final judgement that it will be visible and unmistakable to all.

Of course, the fact is that people DID write about many prophecies in the Olivet Discourse being fulfilled in 70AD...a fact at gets repeatedly ignored.

Stars, Comets, and Lights

Perhaps the most strange, even bizarre, report in Josephus' narrative is the sightings of heavenly apparitions:

Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend, nor give credit, to the signs that were so evident and did so plainly foretell their future desolation; but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see, or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also, before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceeded the war, when the poeple were come in great crowds to feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus [Nisan], and at the ninth hour of that night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which light lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskilful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high-priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple.
Josephus says these astronomical phenomena triggered false prophecies of hope for Jerusalem and its people. Others have seen in them a different significance. The bright light shining round the temple area may be related to the presence of the Shekina glory, the sign of God's presence. False prphets read it in much the same way that false prophets in Old Testament times viewed the coming day of the Lord -as a time of unqualified weal, a day of pure brightness and glory. They missed the dreadful darkness that would accompany it as a sign of judgment. It is significant, however, that signs in the sky were reported by other historians of events surrounding the destruction of jerusalem. The Ropan historian Tacitus, for example, writes this:
The history of which I am entering is that of a period rich in disasters, terrible with battles, torn by civil struggles, horrible even in peace. Four emperors fell by the sword; there were three civil wars, more foreign wars, and often both at the same time. There was success in the East, misfortune in the West. Illyricum was disturbed, the Gallic provinces wavering, Britain subdued and immediately let go. The Sarmatae and Suebi rose against us; the Dacians won fame by defeats inflicted and suffered; even the Parthians were almost roused to arms through the trickery of a pretend Nero. Moreover, Italy was distressed by disasters unkown before or returning after the lapse of ages. Cities on the rich fertile shores of Campania were swallowed up or overwhelmed; Rome was devastated by conflagrations, in which her most ancient shrines were consumed and the very Captiol fired by citizen's hands...The sea was filled with exiles, its cliffs made foul with bodies of the dead. In Rome there was more awful cruelty... Besides the manifold misfortunes that befell mankind, there were prodigies in the sky and on the earth, warnings given by thunderbolts, and prophecies of the future, both joyful and gloomy, were uncertain and clear. For never was it more fully proved by awful disasters of the Roman people or by indubitable signs that gods care not for our safety, but for our punishment.
...In addition to the account of the comet, the sword-like star, and so forth, Josephus provides a most remarkable record of an even more astonishing celestial occurrence, one so extraordinary that the historian himself seems reticent about mentioning it:
Besides these, a few days afer the feast, on the one-and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius [Jyar], a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the evens that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitide, saying, "Let us remove hence."
(The Last Days According to Jesus by R.C. Sproul pp. 121-124)
Furthermore, in reference to Matt 24:16, Eusebius wrote that Christians did in fact flee Jerusalem during the Jewish war "in obedience to a prophecy."

My point here is that you need to get better informed about the historical Reformed interpretations of these passages before you make overly simplified arguments like the one you're making.

117 posted on 04/13/2007 10:25:10 AM PDT by Frumanchu (Historical Revisionism: When you're tired of being on the losing side of history.)
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To: Frumanchu; P-Marlowe; Buggman; blue-duncan
Fru, there is an unbroken chain of CHRISTIAN writers from the earliest church through the 3rd century who looked to the future for fulfillment of things like the Mark of the Beast, the Man of Sin, etc. Not even ONE of them ever hinted that it was other than FUTURE.

It is important that they are Christians. As Christians, they would certainly write of anything so monumental as the return of Christ in 70AD. They would write of armies of heaven surrounding Jerusalem. They would write of unusual celestial events.

But, they didn't. Nor did they comment on it in their era.

And, apparently, they didn't comment on it to Josephus, either. And Josephus is not averse to commenting on Christians. He does so in a number of places in his writings.

And Josephus is not a Christian.

Let's suppose that Josephus, a non-Christian, were our ONLY source for strange events in life of a prophet of that time.

Would we attribute those to Jesus and found an entire Christian doctrine simply on Josephus comments about strange antics of a prophet that he once heard some things about?

Let's say that there were a number of followers of this Nazarene who were prolific writers, who were present, but who didn't write about even one of those things that were mentioned by Josephus.

Would we make them part and parcel of our own teachings?

I seriously doubt it.

The bottom line remains.

Not one writer of the time and NO CHRISTIAN writer of those early centuries of the church EVER mentioned the return of Christ in 70 AD.

129 posted on 04/13/2007 10:53:59 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: Frumanchu

Thank you for posting that. I was looking for my book by Josephus and couldn’t find it! Now I can relax! :-)


159 posted on 04/13/2007 5:52:07 PM PDT by ladyinred
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