Posted on 04/05/2007 11:10:10 AM PDT by MarkBsnr
Fundamentalists are sometimes horrified when the Virgin Mary is referred to as the Mother of God. However, their reaction often rests upon a misapprehension of what this particular title of Mary signifies, and what the Protestant Reformers had to say regarding this doctrine.
A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).
Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.
Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.
To avoid this conclusion, Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism,
(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.com ...
IMHO, it is far safer to simply state God is revealed to us in three persons, God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Also to recognize the Son was born of Mary and she was His mother, but not to confuse the Hypostatic Union of Christ as having been provided by the mother of Jesus.
The arguments regarding the identity, naming, and meaning of the Son of God and the mother of Jesus are easily confused so as to encourage placing Mary before God, which removes a believer from fellowship with Him by violating the most important commandment.
What a very civil discussion. And they said that it couldn’t be done!!! Thank you all for being grown up and civilized.
I agree that there are some who would elevate Mary to the status of Godhood; this is not a fault of the faith, rather, a fault of either the teachers or the lack of teachings. I would equate this false belief with the equally false belief that one can party with the devil their entire lives and then repent on their deathbed and everything becomes hunky dory at that point.
Mary is very special; however I would reiterate that she can be an aid in our journey to Him, a means to the end of attaining everlasting life with God, not an end in herself. That’s like saying that the Crucifix is an end in itself. Silly.
Are you saying that God is in submission to Mary?
Agreed, but only through faith in Christ.
A deathbed confession simply places the believer in fellowship with God. Such a person isn’t getting away with anything, because they missed out on a lifetime of opportunity to be in position for God the Holy Spirit to further sanctify them. They also missed out on many an opportunity to perform good works while in faith in Christ, which are counted at the bema seat for the issuance of rewards by our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.
Some have said that those rewards, which were predestined from eternity past, when left unclaimed by sin, merely result in an eternal memorial of our foolishness in accepting sin instead of Him.
The Cross resolved the issue of sin in the relationship of God with mankind. Good and evil as consequences of sin, still must be dealt with in time.
It’s not exactly a new subject for a thread.
If I ask you to do something that only God can do, that is worship. If I ask you to save me from Hell, or to give me grace or to give me peace in my heart, then that is worship.
We appear to be pretty well on the same page, here.
I shudder, though, at the heresy of predestination. While God knows what we’re up to and will be up to, it’s still our call in the here and now.
Of our own free will do we accept Him or reject Him.
It's not even correct to call her the mother of The Son. It certainly isn't something He called her or that God calls her in His word.
Mark 3:
32 And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You.” 33 But He answered them, saying, “Who is My mother, or My brothers?” 34 And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
Only the uninformed or the heretical ask Mary to save them from Hell.
Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.
Amen.
If we worshiped Mary, we wouldn’t be asking her to pray for us, would we? We don’t ask Jesus to pray for us, since He is God. If we believe that Mary is God, or an equivalent of God, then who would she praying to?
Are you saying that God is in submission to Mary?
Answer my question first and then I will answer your question. A simple "Yes" or "No" will suffice.
Luke might provide some insight:
41
Each year his parents went to Jerusalem for the feast of Passover,
42
and when he was twelve years old, they went up according to festival custom.
43
After they had completed its days, as they were returning, the boy Jesus remained behind in Jerusalem, but his parents did not know it.
44
Thinking that he was in the caravan, they journeyed for a day and looked for him among their relatives and acquaintances,
45
but not finding him, they returned to Jerusalem to look for him.
46
After three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions,
47
and all who heard him were astounded at his understanding and his answers.
48
When his parents saw him, they were astonished, and his mother said to him, “Son, why have you done this to us? Your father and I have been looking for you with great anxiety.”
49
And he said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?” 13
50
But they did not understand what he said to them.
51
He went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart.
Your scriptural quotations do not exclude our beliefs whatsoever. But we have Scripture to back us up:
Luke again:
26
10 In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth,
27
to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary.
28
And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
29
But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be.
30
Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31
Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus.
32
He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, 11 and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father,
33
and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”
34
But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?” 12
35
And the angel said to her in reply, “The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.
36
And behold, Elizabeth, your relative, has also conceived 13 a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren;
37
for nothing will be impossible for God.”
38
Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her.
39
During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah,
40
where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth.
41
When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit,
42
cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
43
And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord 14 should come to me?
44
For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.
45
Blessed are you who believed 15 that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
Notice, among other things, that “And behold, Elizabeth, your relative, has also conceived a son in her old age...” Also conceived a son. This passage alone indicates that Mary conceived a son also. If Mary conceives a son, then she is his mother.
If Mary conceives the Son, then she is His mother.
Put that along with everything else, except Nestorian heresy, and there really is no other conclusion.
Are you saying that God is in submission to Mary?
Answer my question first and then I will answer your question. A simple "Yes" or "No" will suffice.
The bible shows the answer to be no in a couple of places. Where He denies that she is his mom and when he tells the person who wants to attend his dads funeral "let the dead bury their own dead and you follow me" and where he says "anyone that doesn't hate his mother and father is not worthy of me". It's very clear. Sorry to shatter your tradition.
My point was obviously that the asking of some requests is intrinsically worship. The nature of the question or request can make the request as worship as can the fact that one is asking a person that is no incarnate.
Did you know that there are other books in the bible besides Luke?
Luke 2:
[52] And Jesus God increased in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man.
Is it possible for God to increase in wisdom and stature as a result of His life experiences?
The bible shows the answer to be no in a couple of places.
Do you know that one of the Ten Commandments is to honor one's father and mother? So, by saying that Jesus did not honor His mother and (foster) father you are saying that Jesus broke one of God's commandments - that is that Jesus committed sin. You may want to rethink your position on this matter.
Are you saying that God is in submission to Mary?
To answer your question, I am not saying that God is in submission to Mary, but that Jesus honored and obeyed (read submitted to) Mary and Joseph during His earthly life. As another poster pointed out above, Jesus returned with Joseph and Mary to Nazareth after they found Him in the temple in Jerusalem. Also, Jesus submitted to Mary's request at the wedding in Cana (N.B. This is NOT meant to be an exhaustive list of Biblical citations of Jesus obedience to Mary and Joseph).
anyone that doesn't hate his mother and father is not worthy of me
You are sadly mistaken and misguided if you think that Jesus hates Mary and Joseph (or His heavenly Father). It is highly likely that you have taken that text out of context.
” For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.””
And to that I’m sure Mary, his mother, said “Amen!”
Afterall...what better example is ther of someone who did the will of God? (”let it be done unto me according to thy word...”)
To try and use this scripture as some sort of support for your view is a bit silly.
“Is it possible for God to increase in wisdom and stature as a result of His life experiences?”
Jesus is both God and man. He experienced life as both - to deny either his humanity or his divinity is heresy.
Mary sure is special to us Catholics. In a way, I feel sorry for all the fundamentalists who forego her powerful intercession.
I’m happy to have her on my side.
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