Posted on 04/02/2007 8:40:21 AM PDT by topcat54
Conclusion
Although the pretribulation rapture theory is very popular today, given arguments that are offered in support of this doctrine we must declare Pretribulationalism to be contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture. Simply put, there is not one shred of evidence that can be found in the Bible to support the pretribulation rapture. The typical Pretribulational arguments offered reveal a pattern: of imposing one’s presuppositions onto a text without any exegetical justification whatsoever; of finding subtle meaning between words and/or phrases that were never intended by the author; of spiritualizing or ignoring passages that contradict the Pretribulational paradigm; and, of imposing Pretribulationalism upon passages that actually teach the unity of the eschatological complex (i.e., the rapture, second coming, general resurrection, and general judgment all occur on the same day—the day of the Lord). It is our hope and prayer that professing Christians would cast off this escapist fantasy and return to the task of personal sanctification and godly dominion.
(Excerpt) Read more at reformedonline.com ...
Same parallel in John 5:
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.The first resurrection in v. 25 is spiritual and limited, "and hour is coming and now is ... and those who hear will live." Only those with spiritual ears are able to hear the voice of the Master and be born again and raised spiritually from the dead (cf. Eph. 2:5,6).
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
The second resurrection is physical, "from the grace", and are judged, "those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."
A general resurrection followed immediately by a general judgment are what's in store.
OK. I'm quite familiar with the passage. Now tell me something I don't know.
You don't think Christ's Millennial Reign will literally take place?
You don't think Christ's Millennial Reign will literally take place?
"Seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus". "My kingdom is not of this world."
Present reality.
1.) A resurrection of the righteous immediately prior to the Tribulation;
2.) A resurrection of the Tribulation Saints prior to the Millenium, and;
3.) A resurrection of the wicked prior to Judgement.
Lahaye (for instance) specifically refers to THREE resurrections and TWO Judgements in his Revelation commentary (a well-intentioned Baptismal gift). I suppose the second Judgement Day was required to reconcile the timeline after finessing the extra resurrection into the text. It's all very confusing.
"The judgment and separation of the righteous from the unrighteous is found in v. 15, "
"12 ...And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 ....up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works."
Well, now isn't that swell. Now it looks like believers are not alive and present with God, but dead, waiting to find out if they are in the Book of Life and to be judged on their works, like unbelievers. Where in the scriptures are believers referred to as "the dead"?
It's all very confusing.
Occam's razor, man, Occam's razor.
It is literally taking place.
Christ is in heaven reigning on the throne of David exercising rule over the nations with a rod of iron (Luke 1:33; Acts 2:31ff; Rom. 15:12; 1 Cor. 15:25; Heb. 1:8; Rev. 2:27). He has been given all authority in heaven and on earth and the gospel is having success over the nations (Matt. 28:18-20). The kingdom is being established because Satan, the strong man, has been cast out of heaven (Luke 10:18) and bound (Matt. 12:28,29; Rev. 20:2,3). Christ's saints are being spiritually resurrected daily and are reigning with Him as the royal priesthood and holy nation (Eph. 2:5,6; 1 Peter 2:9).
That's about as literal as it gets.
Where can I get blade refills? ;-)
There's one small problem with this interpretation; the number 2,007 is larger than the number 1,000.
"... as to why the Rapture is fiction."
Remember good Doctor, precision counts.
The "Rapture" is not "fictional".
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Certain theories about it's exact timing may be.
It also shows that the American Evangelical church really doesn't know how to handle death. It is seen as something to be feared, so the gospel is "Jesus coming back to take us before we die."
It's pathetic, because both Biblically and historically, the Church always recognized that Christ defeated death, and not merely cheated it. Death was something to be embraced (though not too quickly!), and martyrs to be revered. It was not something to be escaped through some secretive snatching.
Hell was in an uproar because it was done away with.(Thanks to Kolokotronis for introducing me to Chrysostom's Easter Sermon.)
It was in an uproar because it is mocked.
It was in an uproar, for it is destroyed.
It is in an uproar, for it is annihilated.
It is in an uproar, for it is now made captive.
Hell took a body, and discovered God.
It took earth, and encountered Heaven.
It took what it saw, and was overcome by what it did not see.
O death, where is thy sting?
O Hades, where is thy victory?Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!
Christ is Risen, and the evil ones are cast down!
Christ is Risen, and the angels rejoice!
Christ is Risen, and life is liberated!
Christ is Risen, and the tomb is emptied of its dead;
for Christ having risen from the dead,
is become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep.
To Him be Glory and Power forever and ever. Amen!
No.
Physically dead but spiritually live. That what's going on right now. Those who have gone onto glory are spiritually in the presence of God, but await the final resurrection of their bodies. They are disembodied spirits in Hades, the place of the dead. (No, it's not on any map.) And then someday they will be like him.
Those of us believers on earth are spiritually alive but still face the possibility of physical death. "Death and Hades" have not yet been cast into the lake of fire.
Where in the scriptures are believers referred to as "the dead"?
"But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, ..." (Matt. 22:31)
"But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.'" (Luke 20:37)
"Then Jesus said to them plainly, 'Lazarus is dead.'" (John 11:14)
Who was Jesus talking about? Only unbelievers? Is that your theory?
You must discern between those spiritually dead (cf. Luke 9:60), and the physically dead.
"Seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus". "My kingdom is not of this world."
Your quoted verses do not represent the entire witness of Scripture...
Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Which only means you needs eyes to see:
"For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on a thousand hills." (Ps. 50:10)
Does God's ownership of the cattle stop at Hill #1001?
All the numbers in the book of Revelation are symbolic, the larger ones being multiples of other significant numbers. 1000 = 10 X 10 X 10. 144,000 = 12 X 12 X 1000, The city dimensions in Rev. 21 contain similar numbers like 12,000 furlongs and 144 cubits.
Of course if you read the opening line it would help you figure this out.
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John," (Rev. 1:1)
Or perhaps you mean "literally" in some way other than how God expects us to understand His word?
The phrsae "thousand years" is a symbol found in a book full of symbols (do you really expect there to be a "literal" beast with seven heads and the ten horns someday?).
The actual length of the "thousand years" is entirely determined by the characteristics of the "thousands years". Satan is bound and the saints are reigning with Christ. That's how the Bible describes today.
Is this not the same thing that Paul describes in 1 Cor. 15:
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.Christ is presently reigning and accomplishing kingdom expansion by the power of the gospel over the nations.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
You are correct in that some of Revelation is as viewed from Heaven and some as from Earth.
The thousand year bit is viewed as from Earth, making it literally one thousand years, IMO.
(Rev 20:1 - "And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven,..."
You disagree and that's fine.
"Satan is bound and the saints are reigning with Christ. That's how the Bible describes today."
Oh yeah? Explain Nancy Pelosi. (Hehee...)
"Who was Jesus talking about? Only unbelievers? Is that your theory?"
That is who John is talking about in Rev. 20. Believers have already been judged at Calvary and on physical death their works are judged. That's why Paul can say a crown of righteousness awaits him or to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There is no holding one's breath to see if he gets a prize sometime in the future for the believer; he is in the presence where all is manifest before the One with whom we have to do.
When the Great White Throne judgment takes place the marriage supper has already taken place and the believers are already clothed. They have nothing to fear from Him who sits on the throne. They are not disembodied spirits for they are clothed. This judgment is for the unbelievers of all ages and it is a judgment for works that determines the severity of their eternal punishment (Matt. 11:21-22, "Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you").
"15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." Is just a statement where the eternal punishment is to take place. The unbelieving dead already know their names are not written in the Book of Life for where they are the presence of God is not.
Interesting theory. I've seen it before in dispensationalism. Another "rightly dividing" disconnect. I've have to see the proof from specific verses to take it seriously.
They are not disembodied spirits for they are clothed.
What do they put their clothes on if their bodies are still in the grave? You've not spiritualizing the condition of the saints, are you?
You haven't mentioned Matthew 25:31ff; the judgment of the sheep and goats. One judgment or two. Believers and unbelievers, or no? These sheep are not believing sheep but some other set of sheep. "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. ... and I know My sheep, and am known by My own."
Simple reading of the text, or dispensationally/unnecessarily complex?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.