Posted on 04/02/2007 8:40:21 AM PDT by topcat54
Conclusion
Although the pretribulation rapture theory is very popular today, given arguments that are offered in support of this doctrine we must declare Pretribulationalism to be contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture. Simply put, there is not one shred of evidence that can be found in the Bible to support the pretribulation rapture. The typical Pretribulational arguments offered reveal a pattern: of imposing ones presuppositions onto a text without any exegetical justification whatsoever; of finding subtle meaning between words and/or phrases that were never intended by the author; of spiritualizing or ignoring passages that contradict the Pretribulational paradigm; and, of imposing Pretribulationalism upon passages that actually teach the unity of the eschatological complex (i.e., the rapture, second coming, general resurrection, and general judgment all occur on the same daythe day of the Lord). It is our hope and prayer that professing Christians would cast off this escapist fantasy and return to the task of personal sanctification and godly dominion.
(Excerpt) Read more at reformedonline.com ...
Topcat, our conversation has gone on for two threads and multiple hundreds of posts. If I am using “one liners” at this point it is because I have already put forward a scriptural response which has been ignorred and don’t feel like wasting my breath (or keystrokes) at this point.
You are the ones who point to church tradition as a support for your view. We do not. We only show you that the church has not had a preteristic point of view for the most part during most of its life. You ignore even that and use it to throw out more jabs at us.
At this point, the reader can decide who has made their point and who has not.
Have a happy resurrection day.
Romans 11 alone, dispells your theory...The church for the Gentiles was revealed thru the apostle Paul...This period is the time of the Gentiles...The church age...
When the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled, God reveals he will go back to his chosen, the Jews...And then, Christ will physically reign on earth as the King...
The fact that you don't believe this only shows that you don't believe what God said...Lotsa educated folks don't believe what God said...
Please provide specific references, and, more importantly, how they may directly relate to the 70 weeks of Dan. 9.
Thanks.
I'm not a gnostic. There are no "secrets" in the Bible that need to be "discovered". The first century believers who directly received the gospels, letters, etc could have firgured all that stuff out without a decoder ring.
If anyone says differently they are trying to sell something.
There is no "church for the gentiles". Christ's body includes both Jews and gentile who come to faith in Jesus Christ, the Seed of Abraham. All who blieve on Him are all Abraham's children because of Christ.
There is no gap, except in the mind of Darby and his faithful followers.
The fact that you don't believe this only shows that you don't believe what God said...
On the contrary. I don't believe what you and Darby say God said. That's a very different matter.
I wouldn’t bother with these guys anymore than I’d argue with papists about Mariolatry. The very reason this thread was begun was to satisfy carnal desires and ferment argument.
read “foment argument”
We've manage to reduce most of the pre-tribbers to a quivering mass of non sequiturs and one-liners.
Now the best we seem to get are Monty Pythonesque cries of "Run away! Run away!"
Oh well, I guess we've done our job showing the real root and "substance" of dispensationalism.
I have a very low opinion of these haughty chaps who abuse the Word attempting to satisfy their vain and petty arguments and belittle others. They are no more worthy than a billboard lawyer using the law as a tool to gainsay and chissel others. They are limited to studying a narrow portion of eschatology and predestination because they love to argue, not to glean or grow.. My father used to complain about engineers who could not carry on a social conversation without discussing engineering. This crowd can only talk TULIP and amillenialism .
Ask them when they last attempted to glean edification and instruction from outside their pet doctrines and they will be stumped
They are also like the Jehovah Witnesses who have studied their arguments and rehearsed them well before knocking on your door -- impressive in their suits and thoroughly prepared to reason from the Scriptures that Christ, in fact, is not God.
These brothers are not worth a minute of time. Let them pat each other on the back and say what great arguments they make. They are about as obnoxious to me as the Leftist idologues who bash Bush.
“We’ve manage to reduce most of the pre-tribbers to a quivering mass of non sequiturs and one-liners.”
I’m not a pre tribber, but your attitude as evidenced in the above comment is a sign that you may be dealing with more personal issues than you let on. You may think you have “all knowlege” but your scornful attitude indicates that it has not profited you.
“Oh well, I guess we’ve done our job showing the real root and “substance” of dispensationalism.”
Hardly.
AMEN!
People love puzzles and seem to concoct them out of thin air. The Gospel is a lot clearer than all this dispensational imaginings which, in truth, is simply the wolf of rehashed politics dressed up in the Lamb's clothing.
From all these posts one might assume dispensationalism was the prevailing view of modern Christianity when in fact it is a small minority, a fringe element who look outside the window and declare -- "Today it's raining; so it will rain next month."
"Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." -- Daniel 2:35
There is no gap, except in the mind of Darby and his faithful followers.
AMEN! One would have to read a lot of Darby and Scoffield and very little of the Bible (and ignore Hebrews altogether) to come to another conclusion.
"That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." -- Romans 9:8
Jesus Christ, the only seed.
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." -- Galatians 3:28
LOL. For “scornful attitude,” check post 349.
Topcat has consistently used Scripture as the foundation of his argument.
Unlike dispys who’ve invented a philosophy out of thin air, much of which directly contradicts the Bible.
Like lotsa deceitful posts from lotsa non-existent "dudes" who support dat dare dispensationalism, yuck yuck.
Get off your hobby-horse, “doctor,” and broaden your study of the Word. There’s alot of other parts of Scripture which you might find interesting. When was the last time you studied from Isaiah or Jeremiah?
Hmmm, why would you find it necessary to speak about my "attitude" when a myriad of folks from the "other side" have offered their questionable comments?
Let look at some:
"The fact that you don't believe this only shows that you don't believe what God said..." -- iscool {Is it really true that I do not believe God?}
"I have already put forward a scriptural response which has been ignorred ..." -- Blogger {I have never knowlingly ignored any commnts or references.}
" we are still getting charges thrown out at us that are simply untrue." -- Blogger {I have never posted anything that I cannot defend from the Scripture or from the writings of prominent dispensationalists.}
"Ignore and self-congratulate." -- Blogger {after I referenced a post with many Scriptures on the meaning of "resurrection".}
"Oh, I would put my eschatological understanding against what you are proposing any day. As a matter of fact, I have. Still here." -- Blogger
"Indeed! That missing thing would be something called a Biblical eschatology. But I digress..." -- PetroniusMaximus
In #309, I asked you, "The subject of this thread is the pre-trib rapture. Does Papias or any of the other early church fathers speak to this issue?" I never got a response.
And then our friend Zechariah11 bops in with a warning to have no dealing with us infidels.
Curious that I get singled out when lots of folks are copping an attitude.
"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee" -- Psalm 65:4
When was the last time you studied from Isaiah or Jeremiah?
As part of my usual bible reading cycle (start at the beginning, read through to the end, NT & OT in parallel), I've just finished Isaiah and am now in Jeremiah.
What do you want to talk about?
It was rather obvious that your intent was to bait through Scripture the "dispys" (as our esteemed Dr. Ecklesburg calls them)
How much more profit would it have been to ENLIGHTEN others -- say to the background of a passage in Isaiah, or share archaeological evidences to a passage, share a type of Christ, or give a linguistic insight from the exegesis.
Nah, let's not do that. It's not as fun as mocking, posing, belittling, etc.
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