[tacticalogic]

In an ideal society, there would be no government and there would be no need for this. Do you live in an ideal society? I thought not. Both anarchy and libertarianism are the governments of Heaven. That is, people are entirely self-motivated because they have subscribed to the right beliefs and ideals, and there is no need for government.

We don't live in an ideal society, we live in a constitutional republic. That means that we have different levels of government that exercise control within their own appropriate sphere. Do you want to declare it all irrelevant because it isn't and never will be perfect?

[livius]

No, you're the one who wants to do that.

A republic is a res publica, a "thing of the people." We have to make sure that this particular thing expresses the values of the people we want to be. No society has ever existed without values.

Many libertarians seem to believe that having no values is the ultimate liberty, and want the society around them to reflect this. Is that what you want?