Posted on 03/19/2007 5:46:55 AM PDT by markomalley
thanks. It isn't like I don't want NFP to work, but I have been convinced on two other occasions that I was "doing it wrong" and gave it another try only to conceive when it was supposed to be impossible to conceive.
Needless to say, I have a major trust issue with NFP.
But I shouldn't whine when I consider the poor couple (was it from New Jersey?) who appealed to Rome for their unique situation.
They couldn't monitor her fertile signs because her cycle was so irregular. She also couldn't carry a pregnancy to term because of an incompetent cervix.
This resulted in multiple miscarriages.
I believe their question was something like "is it better to artificially contracept than to continue to have dead babies?"
The answer came back "no" - live a life of celibacy.
yikes.
Look at it this way...contraception shouldn't be an issue for an unmarried couple one way or another. An unmarried couple shouldn't be in a position to concern themselves with the issue one way or another. If they (the unmarried couple) stopped contracepting, but were still partaking of activities that might call for contraception, the unmarried couple are still "living in sin."
Wow. I had not heard of this NJ case. Do you have a link to the story? BTW, I hear ya on being overly fertile. It sounds like my wife and I have had very similar experience to yours.
Dear iranger,
"Sorry, I still don't see how ABC necessitates gorging."
It doesn't. One needn't gorge, either, to vomit what one eats.
However, just as bulimia permits eating without regard to limits or natural consequences, artificial contraception permits sex without regard to natural limits or natural consequences.
"...but note that I included fortified foods such as breakfast cerial along with diet soda in my example."
I don't eat breakfast cereal, nor do I drink much diet soda. ;-)
But seriously, the analogs to "fortified cereal" with regard to sexuality would be Vitamin E tablets, I think. At most, it might be analogous to using NFP to actually try to conceive, rather than to avoid conception.
After all, the "fruits" of eating are nutrition of the body - to provide energy and necessary nutrients, as well as the pleasure of eating. The "fruits" of sexual relations are procreation and mutual love. As adding vitamins to one's cereal is used to boost the nutritive value of food, it would be analogous to using NFP to boost the chances of conception.
It certainly wouldn't be analogous to voiding one of the fruits of sexual relations.
Diet soda is a better analog. It's ironic that some studies suggest that drinking diet soda provides little benefit over drinking sugared soda, as it seems that the artificial sweetener "tricks" the body into thinking it is absorbing sugar, and the body acts accordingly.
One wonders whether a similar effect carries over to the other side of our analogy.
However, the analog to diet soda would be, say, a vasectomy, where the "caffeine" has been removed. ;-) And that is no longer contraception but rather self-mutilation. A slightly different topic.
"People eat it for a variety of reasons (lower cholesteral, energy boosting, nutritional) and because it tastes good."
You've really only named two reasons: to maintain good health (if one doesn't eat, one dies, if one doesn't eat properly, one dies), and for pleasure. Again, adding nutrients to one's cereal merely increases the physiological effect; it doesn't void it. Thus, here, your version of the analogy fails, and fails badly. Adding nutrients to increase the positive physiological effect - nourishment of the body, is actually the opposite of artificial contraception, which voids the normal physiological end of sex - procreation.
"Along the same lines of reason, ABC is used by people for a multitude of reasons but it does not necessitate gorging yourself on sex but rather allowing couple to engage in intercourse at a time that is desirable to them."
Not all bulimics gorge themselves every time they're going to vomit. However, the bulimic act permits the person to eat without thought to the otherwise normal and natural consequences of eating.
I could stretch the analogy further (there is evidence that not only is it important to consider how much one eats, but also, when one eats what one eats, so there is an analog to your statement about having sex when one wishes, etc., etc.) but the purpose of analogies is not to show that two things are identical, but to illuminate through comparison.
The analogy from Brian Kopp does that very well, at least for many people.
sitetest
But by definition, bulimia is binge eating followed by purging and that is just the physical characteristics of the disorder. Once you start considering the emotional complications involved in bulimia, the analogy gets even more difficult to make. So like I said, neither analogy does the topic justice.
Dear Scotswife,
"You seem like a reasonably intelligent person to me and have probably looked into this issue much more than the average person."
Thanks. I have you fooled. ;-)
"If it's difficult for you to understand (and for many reasonably intelligent folks) then I'm assuming it's also difficult to explain to many people."
Perhaps, but I don't think it's difficult for me to understand because I lack sufficient intellectual horsepower. I think it's difficult for me to understand because my intellect is clouded by sin. And not just my sin, but the collective sins of many.
Two hundred years ago, plenty of Americans thought that slavery was a perfectly acceptable institution. But today, there aren't many folks who will disagree with the proposition that slavery is objectively morally evil. Folks don't really have to be able to explain it well, or even understand it completely, against every argument - folks just know it's wrong.
What happened? Well, two hundred years ago, folks were born into a society that permitted slaveholding, and in many ways affirmed slaveholding. Especially in the south, most folks knew folks who owned slaves, and some of these slaveholders seemed like upright, good, and decent folks. Abraham owned slaves. St. Paul knew about slavery and seemed to accept it. How could slaveholding be wrong? These obviously good and decent people owned slaves, and seemed to have no qualms about it.
Being born into a society that accepted and often affirmed slavery, most folks didn't have the moral imagination or capacity to figure out that slavery is objectively gravely evil. This likely included most slaveholders.
There was a certain moral blindness in society that affected every member of society to some degree. Some folks may have been able to completely overcome that moral blindness, and see clearly that slavery is an objectively grave evil, others may have seen that less-clearly. But everyone was affected by it.
Today, large numbers of folks in our society believe that abortion is a morally-acceptable choice. How can that be?
Again, they live in a society that affirms IN LAW the right of women to procure the killing of their unborn children. This kind of social affirmation is part of what creates a social moral blindness. Fifty years ago, the overwhelming number of people in the United States would have told you that abortion on demand was an exceptionally gravely evil act. Pretty much EVERYONE knew it. They might not be able to counter every sophisticated argument against abortion, but they knew it was wrong.
But today, a lot fewer folks know it. It's more difficult for folks to see clearly that it's gravely evil. Even though it is!
And it's a lot harder to explain. I know that sometimes I get stumped when trying to explain that abortion is always objecively gravely evil.
And so it is with artificial contraception. Before 1930, the belief that it was objectively gravely evil to use artificial contraception was widely held. Folks didn't HAVE to explain why it was wrong - they just knew it.
Now, we've lived in a society that has had the magical "Pill" for nearly 50 years. Most folks currently alive were born into a society with easy, legal access to multiple methods of artificial contraception. It's a similar moral blindness that exists with abortion, that existed with slavery, that exists with other grave evils that persist in a given society at a given time.
sitetest
Dear iranger,
Again, the analogy works perfectly well to illuminate the question of means versus ends without achieving an identity in every detail.
Frankly, though, when I think about the emotional complications involved in bulimia, it seems to me to make the analogy more apt. Having personally moved over the years from a position of accepting artificial contraception as a moral device to one that rejects that view, what I see in the "rearview mirror" is that acceptance of artificial contraception distorts thinking about marital relations.
See my post #20. It's a viewpoint the underlying premises of which I fought for years and years. I expect that for folks not ready to accept the truth about artificial contraception, it's a viewpoint that will encounter rejection.
sitetest
Sorry site...there is no logical flow here. I honestly can't discern much deductive argument out of your posts. Sheer accumulation of words and random ideas do not an argument make. My apologies if this sounds harsh as I'm pressed for time but I really don't think you've done anything other than try to support a bad analogy. I willingfully will back away from mine as I agree its full of holes but the bulimia thing is equally full of holes. Cheers!
That makes sense. Thanks!
I agree fully. What we see, as shown in the magesterial documents I quoted above, is an attitude that needs to be infused again into society. Our culture ("the culture of life") needs to respect a profound love for God and for His creation...through a respect for the natural systems that He put in place. Legislation can never accomplish that.
"Wow. I had not heard of this NJ case. Do you have a link to the story? BTW, I hear ya on being overly fertile. It sounds like my wife and I have had very similar experience to yours."
I'll work on that for you. I'm relying on memory here, and I'm thinking it might have happened when JPII was still Pope.
Thanks for the recommendation and the pep talk.
I was monitoring it all baby!!
And really - my own problem seems to be with a medical condition that could skew the mucous readings...but I was monitoring temp and cervix too.
It appears to me that the alleged 3-5 day life of sperm is not accurate.
This puts the brakes one everything for 90-95% if the time if I'm going to wait the recommended 3 days after the temperature shift.
And with all this talk about temps, mucous, charts, and saying "no - not today AGAIN"...well....I'm burned out on it all, especially when I just pregnant anyway.
When I read posts about how lovely it is and brings couples closer - well, that hasn't been my experience at all.
"But by definition, bulimia is binge eating followed by purging and that is just the physical characteristics of the disorder. Once you start considering the emotional complications involved in bulimia, the analogy gets even more difficult to make. So like I said, neither analogy does the topic justice."
When I first heard the bulimia analogy it made me wonder about gastric bypasses.
If it is bad to "mutilate" your body to obstruct the natural gift of fertility....why isn't the Church opposed to stomach stapling for the same reason?
lol...touche'
well its a nice try anyway...
Pregnancy and lactation are the only body system functions I can think of which are potential in the adult. Everything else is actual: the heart pumps blood, the stomach digests, the intestines absorb, the kidneys filter, the muscles move, endocrines regulate, the nerves transmit...
And it is this potential function of pregnancy which is somehow set apart in the Church. You can remove an organ if it becomes dangerous or potentially dangerous to you, or even very inconvenient. A gangrenous limb - off. A cancerous lung - out. Breasts with a high risk of cancer - you may remove. A gall bladder that keeps making gallstones, or a uterus with bad fibroids - you may remove. A cancerous prostate whose removal will cause impotence - you may remove. Ovaries with a high risk of cancer - you may remove. Even a cancerous pregnant uterus you may remove. An ectopic pregnancy you may remove - if you treat it as a diseased fallopian tube and not as a pregnancy.
But if it is the state of pregnancy itself that is dangerous - if pregnancy would overtax a weak heart or kidneys - if it would with a very high likelihood cause hyperemesis gravidarum or severe early preeclampsia - tough, suck it up, offer it up. You may not remove the potential of pregnancy for the purpose of removing its potential danger.
Mrs VS
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