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Pope ignores protests (of certain Cardinals) to restore Latin mass
The Australian ^ | March 12, 2007

Posted on 03/12/2007 5:52:37 AM PDT by NYer

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To: TaxachusettsMan

You might be interested to know that Baroniuspress.com is bringback the three volume Latin-English Breviary published by Liturgical Press in the early 1960's. This time the correct psalter, the Vulgate and NOT the Pius XII psalter, will be used.

It won't be cheap, but if it is produced by Baronius Press it should be a beautiful book.


21 posted on 03/12/2007 8:50:45 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: NYer

a week ago i was staying at the seminary of the fraternity of saint peter in southern germany. I know that both the new and old liturgies have the same Body of Christ and graces etc, but there is definately something marvelous about the latin mass and having the latin breviary sung in gregorian chant by about 50 seminarians. Its a mystical experience hearing the mass spoken in latin and it helps to elevate our minds up towards God.

I think this is a very good move of the pope. He is not replacing the vernacular mass but preventing the hurdles that prevent the latin mass from being celebrated.


22 posted on 03/12/2007 8:59:13 AM PDT by rogernz
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To: maryz; Oratam

**It would be interesting to know which cardinals oppose this.**

Seven cardinals -- Shall we have some wild guessing fun?

1. Roger Cardinal Mahony


23 posted on 03/12/2007 9:12:05 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: dsc

it has nothing to do with their reasons, nor whether they will be regularized.

rather than try to reform the church from within they separated from it.

that is the way of the schismatic (and frankly the protestant;i dont like this church ill make my own).

Christ founded one church. he never inteded for Christians to be separated from one another.

1Cr 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.


24 posted on 03/12/2007 9:20:21 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: Tax-chick
Yes, the moto proprio has been "imminent" since around November of last year. Time and again we were told that it would be released "any day now".

We were also assured that it would be attached to the document on the Eucharist, to be released tomorrow. Now, what I'm hearing is that it will be sometime around Easter.

Or maybe later than that. Or sometime in the next century, perhaps.
25 posted on 03/12/2007 9:26:32 AM PDT by Deo volente
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To: Salvation
BINGO!

(A little Catholic humor there.)

26 posted on 03/12/2007 9:33:10 AM PDT by Oratam
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To: NYer
What a crazy headline. Written in the present tense, it says "ignores protests..... to restore Latin Mass", as if the motu proprio has just been published.

Turns out this is the same recycled story which has been doing the rounds since last year. Plus an extra few inaccuracies thrown in for good measure.

27 posted on 03/12/2007 9:36:11 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: Deo volente

I thought they started the "any day now" talk about a week after BXVI was installed :-).

How many times can the "insider" "experts" "close to the Pope" be wrong before the interested public tells them all PHHHHTTTTT?


28 posted on 03/12/2007 9:42:28 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Free Republic, "Where a few remnant curios bite.")
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To: Tax-chick
It's like Charlie Brown trying to kick that football. Lucy is always going to pull it away. :-)

Seriously, though..even if the permission is granted, how many priests in, say, Mahony's archdiocese would dare to offer a Tridentine Mass knowing full well the cardinal's antipathy towards it?

And then there's the problem that no priest may say more than two Masses a day without a special dispensation. With the shortage of priests, almost all the priests here in L.A. are already committed to offer two Masses every Sunday on the regular parish schedule, and they are Novus Ordo Masses. They wouldn't be able to offer an additional Latin Mass on Sunday, even if they wanted to. And the bishop has the final say on the number and kind of Masses offered on a given Sunday in a given parish. He always has that authority. If he has two priests available in a certain parish on Sundays, and he deems it necessary for that parish to provide three English Masses and one Spanish Mass, he can order that.
Additionally, a priest from outside the diocese can not just waltz in here and offer a private Latin Mass without the bishop's permission, regardless of the moto proprio.

What I think we'll get is a blanket permission for the Latin Mass which will be almost impossible to implement, due to canonical restrictions already in force and binding. The bishops will be able to stop this thing dead in its tracks, and they won't have to lift a finger to do so.
29 posted on 03/12/2007 10:12:14 AM PDT by Deo volente
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To: kawaii

"it has nothing to do with their reasons, nor whether they will be regularized."

On the contrary, it has everything to do with reasons. There is a difference between pushing a little old lady out of the path of a speeding bus, and pushing her into the path of a speeding bus. You seem to be insisting that we ignore that, and treat all little-old-lady pushers as the same.

"rather than try to reform the church from within they separated from it. "

No, not really. The same people who "stunned" the Holy Father by banning the traditional missal were trying to destroy the SSPX by deceit, because it was the only thing standing in the way of their complete destruction of the Tridentine. Lefebvre refused to let that happen, and was "announced" Latae Sentae excommunicated.

The floor of Hell is paved with the skulls of bad bishops, and history will show that those who forced Lefebvre's hand were in the wrong.

They didn't separate themselves, they were maneuvered out by modernists. In fact, they have refused to be separated.


30 posted on 03/12/2007 10:15:41 AM PDT by dsc (There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. Edmund Burke)
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To: dsc

there is nothing doctrinal about latin language. nothing at all.

anyone who splits with the body of Christ over langauge is at best a phyletist.

the SSPX has rejected the patriarch of the Roman church. instead suggesting that they themselves are able to determine who the REAL patriarch is.

schismatism at its worst.


31 posted on 03/12/2007 10:18:57 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii

"there is nothing doctrinal about latin language. nothing at all.

That completely ignores so many important points that I hardly know where to begin.

"anyone who splits with the body of Christ over langauge is at best a phyletist."

They didn't split. They were pushed out. Further, the attempt to kill the Tridentine is far, far more than a matter of language.

"the SSPX has rejected the patriarch of the Roman church."

In no way.

"instead suggesting that they themselves are able to determine who the REAL patriarch is."

In no way.

This reminds me of arguing with a liberal over Bush's "lies."


32 posted on 03/12/2007 10:30:31 AM PDT by dsc (There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. Edmund Burke)
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To: Tax-chick
Thank you. The virulent disobedience for which LeFebvre and his associates were excommunicated needs to be repeatedly noted simoply because of the lying SSPX propaganda that their rebellion against the person and office of Pope John Paul the Great had anything whatsoever to do with Mass rubrics or with Latin vs. vernacular. The SSPX is and was the product of LeFebvre's infernal pride, infernal decisions, and infernal willingness to encourage others to reject salvation. Not that I feel strongly about Marcel or anything.

God bless you, yours and all that you do.

33 posted on 03/12/2007 10:34:54 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: BlackElk

Back at'cha! (Colloquialism, you know ...)


34 posted on 03/12/2007 10:40:38 AM PDT by Tax-chick (John Edwards is a gamma male. "Yeah, buddy, that's his own hair!")
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To: dsc
They will soon be regularized, and where will that leave all those who have spent decades calumniating them?

The chances of SSPX reuniting in toto is a number not unadjacent to zero. Any regularization, should it occur, will split SSPX down the middle. Williamson has zero interest in submitting to Rome. Instead, there will be occasional breakaways by those who want back in. FSSP... the recent Institute of the Good Shepherd in France......maybe more in the future.

Not that this really matters. They won't be regularized any time soon. And the chances decrease with every passing day. As Fellay said the other day, this is far bigger than just the rite of Mass.

The malcontent mentality is now too strongly established and will always find something which is unsatisfactory.

35 posted on 03/12/2007 10:52:58 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: dsc; kawaii; bornacatholic; Tax-chick; ArrogantBustard; sittnick; ninenot; Knitting A Conundrum; ...
IF Benedict XVI "regularizes" the SSPX schismatics and their excommunicated leaders with the poisonously anti-Catholic mouths such as DeMallerais and Williamson and Fellay (who presumes to dictate terms, no less, as to what would be necessary for the excommunicated to accept "re-communication"), then this Catholic and most others will note the papal authority of Benedict XVI as we (unlike SSPX) noted the papal authority of John Paul the Great and submit to that authority rather than set ourselves up as independent ecclesiastical authorities self-appointed and self-annointed to sit in judgment upon the See of Peter and its serial occupants.

It will leave the schismatics and excommunicati in a position of putative rebellion against the Church as they were moments before the original LeFebvrite consecrations of rebels as bishops and it will leave those who have continued in faithful obedience to the Holy See in, ummmm, obedience to the Holy See.

Of course, it is a big IF, oft gushily and enthusiastically reported by sycophants of the schism (like those who dishonestly claim that the papal excommunications of the SSPX ringleaders and papal declaration of SSPX as in schism were somehow rooted in Mass rubrics and publish an endless series of articles claiming that B-XVI will be siding with the schism any day now). Of course, they may be confusing B-XVI with "Pope Michael" of North Dakota or Kansas or wherever, a former SSPXer who, having apostasized from Catholicism to SSPX further apostasized from SSPX to Pope Michaelism or whatever.

Do you regard Pope John Paul II, who excommunicated SSPX leaders and declared their cult a schism one of "the Church's modernist attackers????" Catholics want to know. You are far more sensible on matters political like Ann Coulter.

36 posted on 03/12/2007 10:53:42 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: Deo volente
How many priests will say the Tridentine Mass in any diocese will depend upon the terms of the motu proprio. John Paul II's generosity to Tridentine Catholics was resisted by many diocesan bishops and priests. B-XVI may be starting a guerrilla war against that resistance. He can, for example, undermine the authority of the obstructionists by providing a new expedited ecclesiastical judicial process to hammer the obstructionists and set aside any diocesan disciplines of priests saying Tridentine Masses. A limit of two Masses a day is easily set aside by papal fiat made mandatory upon the bishops.

Dare we hope that obstructionist bishops' "conferences" be abolished for resistance? I hope so but doubt that we will see that just yet. OTOH, B-XVI is pope but probably not the last pope and he is unlikely to be replaced by a liberal. The war he starts will be continued, in spite of and not because of SSPX.

37 posted on 03/12/2007 11:01:08 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: vladimir998

Baronius Press was planning to REPRINT the Liturgical Press edition.

I'm the one who emailed them and urgently begged them NOT to do so.

The Liturgical Press edition, as you may know, had the Pius XII Psalter, the Confraternity translation of the Psalms in English, and Connelly's horrible prose version of the hymns.

I even mailed them my four volume Stanbrook Abbey Roman Breviary in English and the complete edition of John Mason Neale's metered and rhymed version of the old Latin hymns.

They've sent that stuff all back now, so we shall see what we shall see.


38 posted on 03/12/2007 11:07:09 AM PDT by TaxachusettsMan
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To: Unam Sanctam
One nice thing about the old breviary, though, is that it is all in one book and not four, like the new one.

If you've got it all in one book, you've either got the 1964 Benziger in English with the John XXIII-abbreviated third nocturn, or a big old "totum" in Latin. Prior to the John XXIII simplification into Tomus Prior and and Tomus Alter (which is what the SSPX and the FSSP have reprinted), the standard Breviarium Romanum was in four volumes by season: Hiemalis (Winter), Verna (Spring), Aestiva (Summer) and Autumnalis (Autumn).

39 posted on 03/12/2007 11:10:59 AM PDT by TaxachusettsMan
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To: Salvation

2. Sean Cardinal O'Malley
3. Dermott Murphy-Cormac (did I get that right)
4. Anyone recall the name of the dutch Cardinal?
5. Got to be the Irish guy
6. The Bishop in charge of the ICEL.
7. The last must be a Frenchman


40 posted on 03/12/2007 11:15:43 AM PDT by Cheverus
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