Sainthood sought for Gallitzin

For your perusal Herr Vlad:

Stepinac and Pavelic ---> responsible for the genocide of Christians during WWII

This is the 1990s - From UPI: "Over the next four years, independent Croatia drove about 600,000 Serbs from their homes, with never a word from the Pope protesting this "suffocat[ion] with force [of ] the rights and legitimate aspirations" of Serbs. About half the Serbs were expelled from Croatia proper and the other half from the neighboring territory of Krajina, claimed by Croatia; the overwhelmingly Serbian population of the Krajina had opposed the break-up of Yugoslavia."

Shall we discuss the the genocide against the Christian Serbs in WWII aided and abetted by the Croatian Catholic Church?

Fact: The Catholic Church hierarchy aided the Nazis.

Fact: The Catholic Church was active in Nazi movements outside Germany in Baltic and Balkan regions helping to run the Nazi State of Croatia. After the war, the Vatican sheltered Nazi war criminals;

Fact: Stepinac aided and abetted the Nazi Croatians butchers of the Balkans

Fact: RC's make a practice of making political statements through their canonization process.

You wrote:

"Stepinac and Pavelic ---> responsible for the genocide of Christians during WWII"

A picture of Stepinac and Pavelic shaking hands does not impress me. The picture of them shaking hands only means that they met, not that they agreed. I know of a picture on the internet of Catholic, Orthodox and Yugoslav Communists sitting on the same platform together shortly after the war. That doesn't mean that the Orthodox were supporters of the Communists does it?

"This is the 1990s - From UPI: "Over the next four years, independent Croatia drove about 600,000 Serbs from their homes, with never a word from the Pope protesting this "suffocat[ion] with force [of ] the rights and legitimate aspirations" of Serbs."

Let's for a moment say that's true. So Pope John Paul II said nothing. And that implicates Gallitzin and Stepinac exactly how? Why not throw in the kitchen sink while you're wasting your time posting nonsense?

And yet when John Paul II died Serbian Orthodox Patriarch Pavle sent a message on April 3rd, in his name and that of the church, to the Catholic faithful in which he wrote that he shared their grief and hoped that the soul of the pope would rest in peace. The Serbian President Boris Tadic and Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica also extended their condolences. Yeah, gee, they must have thought he was a horrible man.

"About half the Serbs were expelled from Croatia proper and the other half from the neighboring territory of Krajina, claimed by Croatia; the overwhelmingly Serbian population of the Krajina had opposed the break-up of Yugoslavia."

That's true. The Serbs were treated horribly. Nearly 50 years of pro-Serbian communist domination didn't help the Serbs image either. And let's not forget that the Serbs did plenty of killing and harrassment from 1945 until...almost yesterday.

"Shall we discuss the the genocide against the Christian Serbs in WWII aided and abetted by the Croatian Catholic Church?"

We can't discuss what never happened. Serb Christians were definitely massacred by Croatian Christians. The Catholic Church did not initiate or support the massacres and tried to stop them on a number of occasions. And again, none of this either proves that Gallitzin reconciled for political reasons or that he is being considered for canonization for political reasons. It doesn't even prove anything about Stepinac either. You really are getting desperate.

"Fact: The Catholic Church hierarchy aided the Nazis."

Fact: The Catholic Church hierarchy worked against the Nazis everywhere. That's why thousands of priests and bishops were arrested, murdered or thrown into concentration camps. See the book, Christ in Dachau, where this is documented in detail. Oh, that's right, you're a public school grad. You probably don't actually read books.

"Fact: The Catholic Church was active in Nazi movements outside Germany in Baltic and Balkan regions helping to run the Nazi State of Croatia. After the war, the Vatican sheltered Nazi war criminals;"

Fact: Some Catholics, NOT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, were active in Nazi movements. So were Orthodox. There was no Nazi state of Croatia. Croatia was run by NDH, not Nazis. The two shared many false ideological points, but Pavelic and his men were not Nazis, members of the Nazi party, nor agreed with all Nazi beliefs - they couldn't for they were not Germanic. Also, the Vatican never once sheltered a war criminal. Certain clergymen, often of Croatian or German background, and not representing any official policy of the Church in any respect did so. The Vatican put a stop to it when it was informed. Those are the facts. They are irrefutable.

"Fact: Stepinac aided and abetted the Nazi Croatians butchers of the Balkans"

Fact: Stepinac never aided any Nazis in any butchery ever, anywhere. Fact: Croats could not be Nazis since the Nazis were Germanic. Some Croats were supporters and members of Pavelic's party, an obviously extremist, radical, ethnic based party that persecuted Jews and Serbs and others. Stepinac denounced all of that and did so to acclaim in his own day EVEN DURING THE WAR.

"Fact: RC's make a practice of making political statements through their canonization process."

Fact: The Catholic Church canonizes those who lived heroic lives of virtue and satisfy all the stated requirements for canonization after a lengthy process. Gallitzin died more than a 150 years ago. No political statement could possible be seen in his canonization (which would still be years and years away). At least no such statement could be seen by normal, rational people. Stepinac's canonization, if it ever happens, will be because he lived a heroic life of virtue and holiness. Only communists would draw the inference that his canonization would be for political reasons since Stepinac's world is long since gone as is communist Yugoslavia.

So what extraneous, completely unrelated material culled from the internet will you post next eleni121? Come on, just throw in the kitchen sink too. How long will it be before you bring up priests molesting altar boys, or the fact that the Church refuses to ordain women? Are you next going to cry a river over the proscription of birth control? You're so utterly predictable in your desperation.

FAct: Stepinac never once decried the atrocities committed against fellow Christians. He has that on his soul...and any canonization process of such a creature deserves contempt. But after all it is a political decison is it not? The Pope apologizes for stepinac and Catholic apathy and then a year later starts the process of canonization. Amazing. Whether it is an Orthodox clergyman sitting with Stalin or a catholic cardinal breaking bread with the fuhrer it is the same hideous thing. But only the catholics have the audacity to canonize such a person!

Stepinac aided and abetted the ustasha which actively and wholeheartedly sided with the Nazis in their murderous purges.

http://www.crusadewatch.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=57

Back to Galitzin: he was baptized in the Christian faith. It is obvious that he deliberately chose to, in fact, be re-baptized in the Catholic rites. At worst he merely exploited (and was exploited by) his social and cultural environment; at worst he was ignorant of the faith of his patrimony: Orthodoxy.

So, he came here and did many good works. Canonization should be reserved for exemplary and humble men..not worldly men like Galiztin who deliberately and knowingly forsook his Christian roots to exploit power.

This is my opinion. Your world view is different. But in this age when ecumenism seems to be the catch word---the catholic church insists on maintaining a certain arrogant oblivion ---when all around its Church is crumbling. And among faithful Orthodox Christians the world over: priesthood celibacy (it exists in the Orthodox Church as well) and birth control/abortion/traditional marriage issues are similar in both churches. What differs greatly is the Catholic focus on maintaining secular power---political and often corrupt - and the hypocrisy that has sadly corrupted the Catholic corpus.

You wrote:

"FAct: Stepinac never once decried the atrocities committed against fellow Christians."

Incorrect. Stepinac denounced the Ustasha terror against the Serbs. This is admitted even by Michael Phayer, who has a rather dim view of the Catholic Church during the Holocaust by the way, in his book The Catholic Church and the Holocaust, page 34. You are simply misinformed as usual.

"He has that on his soul...and any canonization process of such a creature deserves contempt."

Incorrect. Stepinac saved Serbs on every occasion he could. His canonization process had been laudable all along.

"But after all it is a political decison is it not?"

No, it is not.

"The Pope apologizes for stepinac and Catholic apathy and then a year later starts the process of canonization."

The pope never apologized in any way for Stepinac, and had no reason to. Serbs regularly whine that the pope DID NOT APOLOGIZE for Stepinac: "He never apologized for the genocide and mass murder the Roman Catholic priest Alojize Stepinac was guilty of." http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/063.shtml If you were better informed or better read about what even your fellow travelers wrote or believed you would have noticed this. You did not know.

"Amazing. Whether it is an Orthodox clergyman sitting with Stalin or a catholic cardinal breaking bread with the fuhrer it is the same hideous thing. But only the catholics have the audacity to canonize such a person!"

I see no reason why a man whose greatest fault for which you provided evidence is to have shaken the hand of a dictator should not be canonized. Did not plenty of Serbian Orthodox priests and bishops shake Tito's hand? Was he not also a murderer? Did not a Serbian bishop named Nikolaj Velimirovic, who praised Hitler in 1935 and compared him to St. Sava (!) and who died in 1956, become a saint in the Serbian Orthodox Church in a ceremony in the Church of St. Sava on May 24, 2003? Did you even know about that? I bet you didn't. You simply have no clue. That fact won't stop you from running on and on in your posts though now will it?

"Stepinac aided and abetted the ustasha which actively and wholeheartedly sided with the Nazis in their murderous purges."

Actually Stepinac did not aid and abet the Ustasha in their murders and directly and indirectly thwarted them every chance he got. For this there is overwhelming evidence in the Western world - in other words when we don't rely on communists and their allies for information:

As the Yugoslav state collapsed in the spring of 1941, the Orthodox Metropolitan bishop of Zagreb, Dositej Vasic, was arrested and beaten prior to being expelled to Serbia. He told a fellow prisoner that he would have been killed if Stepinac had not firmly intervened on his behalf, and arranged for his release and safe journey to Serbia on May 14th. He also said that his Cathedral would have been burnt down with the Synagogue ((SSJ 53: 97)).

When Stepinac heard from Catholic Archbishop Ujcic of Belgrade, that Orthodox bishop Sava Trlajic of Gornji Karlovic was in jail, he went with Marcone to Pavelic to ask for his release. But they found he had already been murdered ((SAB 73)).

Orthodox bishop Ireneus Ciric asked Stepinac to help his brother Stephen Ciric, a former Yugoslav government Minister, who was in a concentration camp. Following Stepinac's intervention, Pavelic promised that he would be released ((SL 20)).

On May 14th 1941, Stepinac protested to Pavelic that he had heard that 260 Serbian men had been murdered at Glina ((AHO 15)).

After the war, Stepinac's secretary, Stephen Lackovic, wrote regarding his Archbishop: "Innumerable were his protests and interventions before Croatian and German authorities in favour of single or entire villages or groups of Serb Orthodox in Croatia, for whom the Archbishop sought mercy. I was there, as his former secretary. I wrote the protests and petitions and accompanied him". ((SL 21)).

Stepinac rescued 7-8,000 homeless, orphaned Serbian children of Chetnik and Partisan parents from camps ((RJW 57, SAA 36)). He placed them in foster homes or Catholic institutions and gave instructions that they were not to be brought up as Catholics ((SAA 75)).

In July 1941 he protested to Pavelic regarding young priests being recruited into the Ustasha ((CF 411)).

In December 1941, Bogdan Raskovic, secretary to the Ministry of Communications in the Belgrade government, visited Stepinac secretly. He was pleased at all the archbishop had done to save Serbs ((RP 296)).

When, during a sermon on December 31st 1941, Stepinac condemned Nazi and Ustasha principles, some threatened to kill him ((AHO 17)).

In February 1942 Stepinac protested to the minister of the Interior regarding the destruction of Orthodox churches especially in Senj ((SL 21, AHO 17)).

Stepinac sent chaplains and welfare aid to Croats in German and Italian camps in various parts of Europe ((AHU 22)).

Stepinac has been criticised for not expelling any priests from the priesthood. but his immediate authority was limited to the priests in the Zagreb diocese. Of these five hundred, it is thought that 15 were in the Ustasha and thirty sympathised with it ((RP 354)). Although a few had to be disciplined for meddling in politics, none were guilty of a crime ((SL 17)). He did suspend priests who had come to Zagreb from other dioceses and were guilty of crimes. Also, as Vicar General of the army, he was able to suspend unworthy chaplains when he had proof of their misdeeds.

He helped a German Communist who was escaping from the Nazis to reach the Soviet Union ((MR 39-40)). He persuaded German and Italian commanders to discipline troops who had committed crimes ((RP 262-6)).

When professor Zunic criticised the anti-Ustasha activities of the clergy, Stepinac expelled him from the University ((SSJ 2: 20)).

http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/booklets/croatia(n)-1.htm

Clearly Stepinac neither aided nor abetted the Ustasha regime in anything that was evil or immoral.

"Back to Galitzin: he was baptized in the Christian faith. It is obvious that he deliberately chose to, in fact, be re-baptized in the Catholic rites."

Nonsense. He chose to be reconciled with the Catholic Church. That would not in itself require a baptism unless no baptismal document could be found. Do you have any evidence that he was baptized a second time?

"At worst he merely exploited (and was exploited by) his social and cultural environment;"

Again, nonsense. How can you be exploit anything when you give everything up and become the humble servant of someone else? And who exactly exploited him? He was a priest in the wilderness. That's what he loved doing and he did it uncomplainingly for 41 years.

"at worst he was ignorant of the faith of his patrimony: Orthodoxy."

Having the excellent education he had, I seriously doubt that, and see no evidence at all, that he was ignorant of his Orthodox patrimony. He merely chose to become a Catholic because he believed it to be a fuller and more complete Christian faith. You may whine endlessly about that, but that does not mean he was ignorant of Orthodoxy.

"So, he came here and did many good works. Canonization should be reserved for exemplary and humble men..not worldly men like Galiztin who deliberately and knowingly forsook his Christian roots to exploit power."

Exploit power? What? Seriously, how can a man giving up everything in the life of a prince and who was flat broke by 1827 (when he was 57 years old), and spent 41 years of his life in a WILDERNESS serving the needs of Catholics possibly be exploiting power? What power? He had no money - for he spent it on his flock. He had no title - for he renounced it and it was denied him by the Russian government when he became a Catholic and a priest. He never held political office in the secular. He was merely a priest, never even a bishop. He was a missionary who traveled over tens of thousands of miles every year to offer Mass and the other sacraments for his flock. Where and how did he exploit power? What power did he have? What did he accrue for himself? Nothing. Nothing but grace -- and that was a gift from God.

"This is my opinion. Your world view is different."

Yes, mine is correct. Mine is balanced, based on actual sources, well reasoned, well thought out and not some sort of knee jerk, emotional reaction to something I don't like. You opinion is yours, but wouldn't it help if it was based on reality? Wouldn't it help if it made sense? Wouldn't it help if it was based on some reputable source and not pulled out of thin air?

"But in this age when ecumenism seems to be the catch word---the catholic church insists on maintaining a certain arrogant oblivion ---when all around its Church is crumbling."

I live in a diocese where the Church is actually thriving. I just visited an old professor of mine at a new Catholic school that didn't even exist 7 years ago and now has nearly 800 students. My parish is full. My old parish is overflowing. At that parish our oldest priest was 41 ! Is the Church suffering in some places? You bet. Mostly because of ignorance like yours. There are other places where the Church is booming.

"And among faithful Orthodox Christians the world over: priesthood celibacy (it exists in the Orthodox Church as well) and birth control/abortion/traditional marriage issues are similar in both churches."

Untrue. Birth Control is essentially allowed in Orthodox Churches if the couple has been previously open to life. "Again, however, married people practicing birth control are not necessarily deprived of Holy Communion, if in conscience before God and with the blessing of their spiritual father, they are convinced that their motives are not entirely unworthy." http://www.oca.org/QA.asp?ID=147&SID=3

And let's be honest, divorce and remarriage, another divorce and remarriage...that's not exactly traditional marriage, but that's what the Orthodox allow. An Orthodox man can have three marriages in the Orthodox churches even if his previous wives are alive and well. That IS NOT traditional marriage - till death do us part.

"What differs greatly is the Catholic focus on maintaining secular power---political and often corrupt - and the hypocrisy that has sadly corrupted the Catholic corpus."

Men are corruptible, the Church as the Body of Christ, is not. And none of this tells us anything about Gallitzin who had no power in secular society at all, nor Stepinac who also was not a secular official. You keep throwing in every little non sequitur you can think of. None of it will change the fact that Gallitzin did not reconcile for political reasons and his canonization could not possibly be for political reasons either.

The Orthodox Christian Church is the pure faith. You can hem and haw and argue til the cows come home...nothing changes the truth.

I can see the ummm...political issue has fried you. I admit it's a problem. Instead of supressing the truth you should be admitting the sordid facts. It's the people who populate these institutions not the Church herself after all.

My advice: It's best to accept the truth rather than deny it.

You wrote:

"The Orthodox Christian Church is the pure faith."

So say you. With your track record of obvious errors I have no more reason to believe you than Gallitzin would.

"You can hem and haw and argue til the cows come home...nothing changes the truth."

That's what I have been telling you. Parroting my words won't change the truth either. You're still slandering both Gallitzin and the Church.

"I can see the ummm...political issue has fried you."

What's fried here is obviously your brain and not me. To me, correcting your errors is just another day of telling the truth to those who don't know it.

"I admit it's a problem. Instead of supressing the truth you should be admitting the sordid facts."

I couldn't suppress the truth of something even if I wanted to. This is the internet. Anyone can post anything they want here within reason and I can't stop him nor do I want to. Everything I have posted is true. I often backed it up with sources. You posted lies, half-truth, distortions and even a misleading photo - usually without attribution of course. I know the subjects so well that I even knew the "Orthodox" side better than you do as I demonstrated by teaching YOU about a Serbian Orthodox saint who praised Hitler (which you never knew about, right?) and corrected your numerous errors (such as JPII supposedly having apologized for Stepinac when Orthodox whine about the exact opposite).

"It's the people who populate these institutions not the Church herself after all."

If Gallitzin will be canonized it will be through the Church and he will be cheered on by the faithful - as he should be. The same goes for Stepinac.

"My advice: It's best to accept the truth rather than deny it."

Then why do you deny it? I am the one who has been right all along. You have been wrong repeatedly. You made errors about Gallitzin's life, knowledge, why the Church would consider him for canonization. I made no such errors precisely because I care about the truth.

My advice: Get a clue. Correct that public school education through actually reading books for a change. Stop pretending you know about things concerning Catholics when you aren't even familiar with the history of the Orthodox.

Thank you for the links, and information about this man...and thank you as well, for your personal insights into this matter...

Your smarmy false remarks prove without a doubt your spirituality and faith: You have NONE.

Anyone who defends a Nazi cardinal cannot be credible in any matters regarding the Christian Church.

You are on my "pray for them" list

But miracles do happen.

You wrote:

"Your smarmy false remarks prove without a doubt your spirituality and faith: You have NONE."

I may have made remarks that you see as smarmy, but I made no statement at all that was objectively false. Live with it.

"Anyone who defends a Nazi cardinal cannot be credible in any matters regarding the Christian Church."

I never defended any Nazi, and I never defended any "Nazi cardinal". Stepinac wasn't even a cardinal during the war. Again, we see that you have no idea of what you're talking about. I certainly have more credibility than you have - as other messages here show.

"You are on my "pray for them" list."

Thanks. We can all use prayers.

"But miracles do happen."

For me it already did - that's why I don't make your mistakes. You will continue to do so - just as you did in this post.