That's where by "God's mercy alone are we saved" comes is. But you must try and trying is doing. We can draw the same parallel with the "Be[come] therefore perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect." (emphasis added)
YES, YES, YES! :) This is all I meant by not taking a passage to its literal and strictest sense. It is unattainable, but it points us in the Godly direction.
FK: "We see all of those "if-then" statements very differently. I think you may see them as God sort of bargaining with humans, "Let's make a deal"
Hardly, FK. God doesn't make deals with us. He tells us the way it is: if you do this, then I will do this. It's pretty straight forward.
But, ............. that's what a deal IS. :)
I think it's funny that so many Protestants have no problems believing biblical myths, yet refuse to accept straight and unambiguous verses because they don't fit their (pseudo-Pauline) theology!
I think if we are both honest we say that ALL sides accept certain scriptures at literal face value and interpret others. In our cases, they just happen to be different scriptures. :) But, I do happen to think that Reformers take the straight line meaning MUCH more often than do the Apostolics.
The Jews believe that living a virtuous life makes one acceptable to God. It is difficult to disagree with that.
I've just erased my third different answer to this. Maybe that should be my answer. :)
Judaism did not speak of heaven, but of the world to come. Not even the apocalyptic (messianic) sects (Essenes, Pharisees) believed they will go to 'heaven'.
The Jews certainly believed in the resurrection of the dead and an afterlife. I don't understand the distinction you're drawing. Most of them "may" not have had the same conception of Heaven that we have, but so what? They did know that physical death was not the end.
The Kingdom of Heaven is to be an earthly kingdom made possible by God, with messiah as its king. The messiah would be a mortal human appointed (and anointed) by God to become the King of Israel and defeat Jewish enemies. Jews do not believe they go to 'heaven'.
Aside from the "mortal" part, isn't this sort of like "New Jerusalem"?
The Sadducees, the priestly caste in charge of the Temple, did not believe in resurrection, or angels, and their canon consisted only of the five books of Moses (the Torah).
That's fine, but I don't think this reflects the beliefs of the "average" OT Jew.
The Bible is clear that there is a condition attached to God's mercy: repentance. We cannot live perfect lives, but we must try. When we sin, we must repent, move on and "try to sin no more". Honestly try even if you honestly fail says Orthodoxy. But try in your heart you must.
The Bible is clear that there must be repentance for there to be salvation. That is very different from what you said. Technically, our belief is that "God's mercy" comes before repentance, since we cannot repent without it (grace).
We cannot live perfect lives, but we must try. When we sin, we must repent, move on and "try to sin no more". Honestly try even if you honestly fail says Orthodoxy. But try in your heart you must.
No argument here, these are words to live by.
Kosta: Hardly, FK. God doesn't make deals with us. He tells us the way it is: if you do this, then I will do this. It's pretty straight forward
FK: But, ............. that's what a deal IS
No, FK, it's a promise.
I think if we are both honest we say that ALL sides accept certain scriptures at literal face value and interpret others
Of course. The Genesis, for example, is understood allegorically.
But, I do happen to think that Reformers take the straight line meaning MUCH more often than do the Apostolics
It seems that way.
Kosta: The Jews believe that living a virtuous life makes one acceptable to God. It is difficult to disagree with that
FK: I've just erased my third different answer to this. Maybe that should be my answer
Perhaps because you can't bring yourself to admit that in your heart it rings true?
The Jews certainly believed in the resurrection of the dead and an afterlife
The belief in resurrection coincides with the appearance of messianic beliefs and political sects (Pharisees, Essenes) in the neighborhood of about 200 years before Christ.
The reason why the Jews of today believe in resurrection is because modern-day rabbinical Judaism is Pharisaical. The other two major sects (Sadducees and Essenes) died out bu the end of the 1st century AD.
Kosta: The Sadducees, the priestly caste in charge of the Temple, did not believe in resurrection, or angels, and their canon consisted only of the five books of Moses (the Torah)
FK: That's fine, but I don't think this reflects the beliefs of the "average" OT Jew
There is no such thing as an "average" OT Jew. Judaism was made up of different sects which believed different things and used different canon.
Today people assume that Judaism was monolithic, as it is today (as least as far as theology is concerned). That's not the case. No one could claim monopoly on Judaism.
After the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, the only sect that survived were the anti-Chrisitian Pharisees who morphed into rabbinical Judaism.
A similar fate befell the Christians. Of various Christian groups, the orthodox branch of Irenaeus survived (until the 16th century).
Technically, our belief is that "God's mercy" comes before repentance, since we cannot repent without it (grace)
God offers a conditional clemency to all who are willing to come to Him. The condition is: Baptism. We don't deserve the pardon, we can't earn it or buy it.
God does it out of love because we inherit the fallen state from our ancestral parents at no fault of our own. So, God's acceptance is purely an act of mercy. But, I reiterate, it is not unconditionl.
Once restored to grace, God again conditions His pardon by making our repentance the key to His forgiveness of sins that we have committed willingly, while under grace.
But if you subscribe to the pseudo-Paulean doctrine of atonement, and believe that Christ paid all your bills, past, present and future, and you are free of any obligation, then repentance and personal responsibility that comes with it become secondary.
You cover yourself with the "white sheet" and say "my sins are already forgiven," which makes repentance meaningless. God did not die on the cross so that we can be free to sin (as Luther suggests), but so that we may be saved by repenting of them.
We have to ask before we are forgiven. It's cooperating with God's rules and God's will.