Kosta: Hardly, FK. God doesn't make deals with us. He tells us the way it is: if you do this, then I will do this. It's pretty straight forward
FK: But, ............. that's what a deal IS
No, FK, it's a promise.
I think if we are both honest we say that ALL sides accept certain scriptures at literal face value and interpret others
Of course. The Genesis, for example, is understood allegorically.
But, I do happen to think that Reformers take the straight line meaning MUCH more often than do the Apostolics
It seems that way.
Kosta: The Jews believe that living a virtuous life makes one acceptable to God. It is difficult to disagree with that
FK: I've just erased my third different answer to this. Maybe that should be my answer
Perhaps because you can't bring yourself to admit that in your heart it rings true?
The Jews certainly believed in the resurrection of the dead and an afterlife
The belief in resurrection coincides with the appearance of messianic beliefs and political sects (Pharisees, Essenes) in the neighborhood of about 200 years before Christ.
The reason why the Jews of today believe in resurrection is because modern-day rabbinical Judaism is Pharisaical. The other two major sects (Sadducees and Essenes) died out bu the end of the 1st century AD.
Kosta: The Sadducees, the priestly caste in charge of the Temple, did not believe in resurrection, or angels, and their canon consisted only of the five books of Moses (the Torah)
FK: That's fine, but I don't think this reflects the beliefs of the "average" OT Jew
There is no such thing as an "average" OT Jew. Judaism was made up of different sects which believed different things and used different canon.
Today people assume that Judaism was monolithic, as it is today (as least as far as theology is concerned). That's not the case. No one could claim monopoly on Judaism.
After the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, the only sect that survived were the anti-Chrisitian Pharisees who morphed into rabbinical Judaism.
A similar fate befell the Christians. Of various Christian groups, the orthodox branch of Irenaeus survived (until the 16th century).
Technically, our belief is that "God's mercy" comes before repentance, since we cannot repent without it (grace)
God offers a conditional clemency to all who are willing to come to Him. The condition is: Baptism. We don't deserve the pardon, we can't earn it or buy it.
God does it out of love because we inherit the fallen state from our ancestral parents at no fault of our own. So, God's acceptance is purely an act of mercy. But, I reiterate, it is not unconditionl.
Once restored to grace, God again conditions His pardon by making our repentance the key to His forgiveness of sins that we have committed willingly, while under grace.
But if you subscribe to the pseudo-Paulean doctrine of atonement, and believe that Christ paid all your bills, past, present and future, and you are free of any obligation, then repentance and personal responsibility that comes with it become secondary.
You cover yourself with the "white sheet" and say "my sins are already forgiven," which makes repentance meaningless. God did not die on the cross so that we can be free to sin (as Luther suggests), but so that we may be saved by repenting of them.
We have to ask before we are forgiven. It's cooperating with God's rules and God's will.
Not to me. :) For one thing, Luke includes Adam matter-of-factly in his chapter 3 lineage. So does Paul in several places, such as Rom. 5:14; 1 Cor. 15:22, 45; 1 Tim 2:13-14. Same thing in Jude 1:14. There are also plenty of references in the OT. It just seems the rest of the Bible treats Adam being the first man as a literal statement.
God offers a conditional clemency to all who are willing to come to Him. The condition is: Baptism. We don't deserve the pardon, we can't earn it or buy it. ....... Once restored to grace, God again conditions His pardon by making our repentance the key to His forgiveness of sins that we have committed willingly, while under grace.
I don't agree that God's gift can be "free", yet have significant strings. When Paul says in 1 Cor 6:19-20: "... You are not your own ; 20 you were bought at a price. ..." he cannot actually mean "bought and paid for". He must really mean "leased" with an option to buy based on performance. :) I think Jesus' effort was greater than that.
But if you subscribe to the pseudo-Paulean doctrine of atonement, and believe that Christ paid all your bills, past, present and future, and you are free of any obligation, then repentance and personal responsibility that comes with it become secondary.
Christ did pay all the bills of His elect. However, in no way does that free us from any obligation. That is the plain meaning of OSAS, and is wrong. We absolutely must do good works and WILL do them. We will want to with the new heart God has given us. He only gives His children the best. What do you make of the passage:?
Ezek 36:26-27 : 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
God chose not to transform us into sinless beings during physical life, but He makes clear that He will move us. Either God's "moving" means "gives suggestions" or it refers to actual action by God, in which He cannot fail to achieve His goals.
You cover yourself with the "white sheet" and say "my sins are already forgiven," which makes repentance meaningless.
Not at all. It just means that our repentance is not due to our inner wonderfulness. Repentance comes from God. God causes all believers to repent by giving them a new heart.
God did not die on the cross so that we can be free to sin (as Luther suggests), but so that we may be saved by repenting of them.
It's interesting that the only ones in the world who believe that about Luther strongly disagree with him. It's OK, we who believe in many of his teachings know he never suggested or thought anything like that. ...... And again, I disagree that Jesus' death was only worth giving everyone a shot at salvation. I don't see God as One who only goes half-way on the big stuff.