Posted on 03/07/2007 9:10:18 AM PST by Salvation
You see, a lot of Christians used to be pretty little white or near-white lambs lost in the pasture until they heard the Master's voice and He cleaned them up and gave them a fresh start and they followed Him.
I, on the other hand, was one of those filthy, scraggly, half-eaten, black and bloodied little goats in the wolf's mouth. When the Master spoke to me and I heard Him, He made me altogether new. I am a lamb now and I don’t want to be any where but transparent in Him. I don't want to get down and frolic in the pasture again. ever
I can well agree with that.
I've been a more than plenty hideous goat far too much of my life, myself--inspite of trying otherwise a lot of it.
But I wasn't talking about:
I am a lamb now and I don’t want to be any where but transparent in Him. I don't want to get down and frolic in the pasture again. ever
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My points about personality and God shinging through us/being reflected in us
imho,
have NOTHING to do with the above.
Yes, as Paul so well outlined, in this current state/time-space dimension--the two natures are inextricably linked.
But that shall not always be so. PTL FOR THAT!
And when that is no longer so--WHEN that is NO longer so--I shall be
most fully His perfect channel/reflection AND MOST FULLY the me HE DESIGNED me to be.
imho.
But it's important to remember that our sanctification by the Holy Spirit is not what saves us. The only thing that saves us is the shed blood of Christ and His redemptive work on the cross on our behalf.
Our sanctification is a gift of God and a work of the Holy Spirit. Our justification from condemned to acquitted is by Christ alone.
But you were always one of His lambs, AG, loved by Him from before the foundation of the world.
You just didn't know it until God shined His light into your heart and told you so. 8~)
Amen. 8~)
Amazing how we can have so many long discussions about things where we are essentially in agreement but have differences which are merely semantic.
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INDEED.
But it's important to remember that our sanctification by the Holy Spirit is not what saves us. The only thing that saves us is the shed blood of Christ and His redemptive work on the cross on our behalf.
Our sanctification is a gift of God and a work of the Holy Spirit. Our justification from condemned to acquitted is by Christ alone.
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TRUE, CERTAINLY.
THX.
But alas, we are mere mortals and thus easily distracted - so we have to be ever diligently removing the weeds in our lives
Agree. In this life. But once restored to our original created state before the Fall, we should be able to resist distractions and focus on God all the time, thereby neglecting our own needs and desires. Thus, out personalities, functionally or otherwise, will cease to be a factor in our existence.
Where there are individual needs, there are individual differences, competition, envy, etc. Nothing like that could possibly exist in heaven.
Even demons believe and tremble. I guess that makes them part of the 'church' according to the relativism you have been spouting on this forum.
May God bless you, dear kosta50.
OK, thanks. So while disciplinary canons and the declarations of non-ecumenical councils might not be considered eternally infallible, they are nonetheless considered binding, correct? I'm trying to figure what level of diversity of view is allowed in order to still be a good Orthodox. I'm confused because on the one hand, the seven Councils did not lay out tons and tons of dogma, but on the other hand, all Orthodox Churches believe essentially the same things, implying to me a lot more than a handful of basics. Since the RCs have papal infallibility, it would seem that they have much more in stone, INCLUDING things you (currently) agree with them about.
Thus, out personalities, functionally or otherwise, will cease to be a factor in our existence.
Where there are individual needs, there are individual differences, competition, envy, etc. Nothing like that could possibly exist in heaven.
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I strongly disagree. I don't even think that's very Biblical.
God certainly had the capacity to create robots, drones, puppets, clones.
He emphatically did NOT.
Fellowship with a mass of identical 100% transparent clones, robots would not be any kind of fellowship I'd imagine attractive at all--even or especially TO GOD.
Our Heavenly state will, imho, result in our personalities being MUCH MORE US IN MORE WAYS, DEPTHS, BREADTHS, INTENSITIES than we can here imagine.
Roland Buck's Heavenly visit as well as a host of others--emphatically describe individuals who are "known as they are known" in a much richer and freer expression of their personalities than was possible on earth. AND GOD IS MORE GLORIFIED through their personalities than would otherwise be the case had their personalities been obliterated.
I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp.
You make it sound like every last shred of any hint of our personalities is from hell to be banished to hell ASAP and obliterated for ever more.
NOT SO! OUR PERSONALITIES COME FROM GOD! AND HE DOES ALL THINGS WELL.
I imagine . . . all the saints have Heavenly bodies and are in their perfected 100% transparent; total personality obliteration states. Our Heavenly Father comes into the Marriage Supper of The Lamb.
First thing out of His mouth--WHERE IS EVERYONE??? Why aren't the chairs filled with those I've been so eager to fellowship with at this table? Why is everything homogeneous white everywhere I look? Where's all those rich wonderful personalities I so carefully constructed and my Son died for at such infinite cost? WHERE ARE THEY!?!
GOD CREATED US WITH
INDIVIDUAL NEEDS. Partly so He could enjoy MEETING THEM! Have none of you had any children or emotionally adopted children? Those of you who have certainly have experienced one of the greatest joys in mortal life--to meet the needs of one's children in loving fun, creative ways.
So you think God is going to rob Himself of such pleasures? Hogwash.
I'll go on trusting the Biblical foundation for personality as well as those saints who've visited Heaven and returned to tell about it. Such as Roland Buck:
http://www.angelsonassignment.org/index2.html
Folks who demonstrate no evidence of any such Heavenly visits and less evidence of understanding Biblical principles about personality will not likely get a shred of my sympathy or concurence on such notions as obliteration of personality in our Heavenly state.
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For further Catholic discussion
Incense.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but [now] I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me [to be], or [that] he heareth of me.
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. – 1 Cor 12:1-9
The last few chapters makes clear the first cause and final cause of “all that there is” – Alpha and Omega – Genesis to Revelation – this heaven and earth and the heaven and earth to come. In the ending scene, the new heaven and earth, no one is self centered, seeking his own glory, feeling sorry for himself. It is all beautifully harmonious.
There’s no mention of Moses being specially honored – or Abraham or Isaac or Jacob or David and so on. It’s all about the Father and the Lamb and the Bride.
And then my thoughts turn to Roland Buck (who most people here have probably not read I suspect.) He too was a humble man and had nothing to gain and everything to lose by telling of his heavenly ventures. And he too saw something beautifully harmonious. It too was all about the Father and the Lamb.
I would be immediately suspicious of anyone claiming a vision of heaven which had any other priority.
Likewise the pseudepigraphral books attributed to Enoch recount his heavenly visits - but the overwhelming focus is on the Father and "The Elect One" (Jesus Christ.)
***
Truly, dear Quix, when I meditate on all of these - there is not one iota of my personality I would consider worth keeping in the new heaven and earth. I'd be content as a pillar as promised to those of the church of Philadelphia who overcome. But it is up to Christ. We'll see.
In Kolo's last post on this, he mentioned dogmas, and I thought he meant as distinguished from doctrines. In descending order, I think that Catholics go from dogma to doctrine to discipline, and I thought it is the same in Orthodoxy. So, I believe I may be a little confused on the terms. In Catholicism, I thought that dogma was in stone, but that doctrine and discipline could be changed. Is this different in Orthodoxy? Also, is everything in the seven councils considered dogma, or did they also include doctrine or discipline?
I understand what you mean. Same idea here. I will always answer your posts as well. I really enjoy our conversations.
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