Posted on 03/07/2007 9:10:18 AM PST by Salvation
So at this point we have established your view as being that the collective Church is infallible, and the Bible (by itself) is not
No. Two heads are better than one. The collective knowledge of the Church is better than the individual knowledge of one person. Thus, we believe that the Apostolic Church Christ left behind, collectively, is protected by the Holy Spirit. Individual interpretations of the Bible is not.
Thus when kawaii and I or any Orthodox or Catholic speak on the subject, we express an opinion which is just that, and which may or may not agree with what the Church teaches and how the Church collectively interprets. Neither kawaii nor I are official spokesmen for the Church.
St. Gregory of Nyssa believed, like his mentor Origen, in universal salvation. The Church never taught universal salvation. St. Augustine taught that the Jews were the descendants of Cain, and therefore under the curse.
Clearly, this does not affect his theology that so many Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox find agreeable. Even the Church Fathers were fallible. The Apostles, being human, were also fallible. The scriptures they wrote were not.
We also believe, as the Protestants do, that the Scriptures were inspired by God. The inspiration and the message is infallible; human rendition of it is not, save for the originals which are no longer extant.
We know that there are copies of copies and that these copies have many, many versions, many copying errors, using different words, etc., and even that some of the purported "scriptures" are really forgeries (take for example Aquila's, Theodotion's and Symmachus' Greek Old Testaments).
We also know that neither one of us is inspired and that our individual readings of the Bible are influenced by our fallen nature, our corruption (prejudices, opinions, cultures, experiences, etc.) and are therefore subject to be erroneous interpretations.
We therefore defer to the collective understanding of the whole Church rather than make an individual a "church" unto itself. We believe that the Church is a community that prays together ans eats together of the same spiritual food and believes one and the same thing. A true believer must accept that God's
I took you to mean that whatever corruption IS in the Bible can only be corrected through Church interpretation.
No, the Church does not correct the Bible. The Church holds on to the faith that was given and maintains it through the Holy Tradition taught from the beginning. Thus, it is independent of trends, changing cultural norms, and individual human preferences and opinions. It can discern which copying error or linguistic error is inconsistent with that faith, and assumes that whoever committed the error by copying, agenda, or neglect is not what was delivered to the inspired authors originally by the Spirit.
Thus the Church could separate the wheat from the chaff when it came to various 'gosepls' floating around in the 2nd century AD and select 22 genuine works from the 200-plus scrolls known at that time.
It only means that the Church, collectively, interprets the Scriptures correctly, not that the Church corrects errors in the (original) Scriptures.
I you were to read in an Italian newspaper that Americans drive on the left you'd immediately know this to be an error because you know this is not true. The reasons for that error are a different story, but you'd now that the error originated in the process of printing/editing. Thus you would be justified is rejecting it as truth.
If you were to read that in America we call gasoline 'petrol' you would know it to be wrong as well. Again, the reasons for such error are a different matter, but the lack of veracity of the usage of 'petrol' would never be in question.
It wouldn't since the Church's job is to correct the errors in the scriptures
Based on what I just outlined before, I can say you are wrong. Protestant refusal to admit that copying errors and other factors resulted in numerous variants and errors in the Bible is dumbfounding to Orthodox and Catholics. Their conclusion that recognizing such omissions is 'correcting' the Scriptures is likewise.
iI marvel at how close I am on so many issues with other Protestants, considering if the starting point was "anything goes", as some like to portray it
If one sees the same movie, they will have similar opinions about it. There will be a few on each fringe who will have experienced it unlike the majority, but most people will have some sort of general consensus on the content. That does not mean it's the work of the Holy Spirit.
God reminds us not to use His Holy Name in vain. I would be very careful in claiming the Spirit every time I wanted to make my interpretations and opinions "authoritative."
Individual Fathers or Apostles are subject to error, but the group as a whole is not. I disagree because I do not think the individual writings of the Apostles (or any other Biblical writers) were subject to error
We only have copies of the copies of what they wrote. Just as I believe the souls we receive from God are pristine, so was His message that moves the apostles to write. Somewhere along the line our souls become darkened and copies of the originals contain known errors, conceptually, theologically, linguistically, culturally, etc.
I can only name two, Kosta and Kawaii. :) My hypo is new and only based on both of your collective comments on this thread
Neither he nor I would ever confuse our opinions with what the Church says. If we quote the Church doctrine, we make that clear. St. Augustine said all sorts of things, but in the end he deferred to the Catholic Church. he never once thought he was better or even equal to the Church as a whole.
What qualifications do you think are needed to interpret the Constitution correctly? Does one have to be a judge?
Yes. It makes no difference if you can read it. It makes no difference if you are 'qualified' to read it. What mater is the position you have been appointed to.
You can study medicine on your own and be able to even pass the licensure boards, but unless you have actually met the requirements (attended a recognized medical school, received an MD/DO diploma), passed the boards, and received a license to practice medicine and surgery you MAY NOT diagnose and treat.
Unless you are an appointed/elected judge, you may not rule what is constitutional and what is not. Your opinions simply don't count. You can agree or disagree with the official interpretation, but your opinion and a $1 will buy you a cup of coffee.
Whoops, you're right, I should have said the "Southern Baptist Convention" instead of the "American Baptist Church" in #2. The SBC adheres to OSAS.
I don't believe the rest do though, at least explicitly, at least not according to their websites.
Nope - you've missed it completely. Try again.
Ok, then maybe I'm mistaken about the entire thing. It seemed Alex Murphy was rebelling against my list that pointed out differences between some mainstream Protestant denominations, and I thought he was doing so because he believed this "invisible church" had no major doctrinal differences.
But is the point now that the "invisible church" has no doctrinal unity except belief in Jesus Christ as Lord? Is that your point, ScubieNuc? If that's the case then I simply submit that I could never believe in such a concept. I could never believe that God would want His Church filled with confusion on whether or not His Son is God, or whether or not OSAS is true, or whether or not we have free will.
We can agree to disagree if that's the point here. I just could never accept a Church filled with such confusion, personally speaking.
I do not play games. Tell me what you object to, or else I see no point in going back and forth about this.
Or, if you believe as ScubieNuc does, then perhaps my post to the both of you would be more profitable.
Right now there is a very interesting discussion going on about Christian Zionism that does not have any interest by RC's or EO. IOW, the threads are there you just have to look for them. ;-)
And that is the beautiful Truth I see in the foundation gemstone metaphor of the New Jerusalem: we do not all have to be alike.
You and I can choose to be like John. Others can choose to be like Peter, or Paul, or James and so on. And it is altogether beautiful.
BTW, a family member in the Netherlands used to send us a chocolate letter for the first initial of our names every year for Christmas. She said that was a tradition in the Netherlands.
Thanks for your encouragements.
vis a vis personality etc.
I believe that the closer we get to God; the more yielded we become to God; the more pure channels we become FOR God . . . that ALSO CONCURRENTLY, THE MORE WE BECOME THE PERSONALITIES !!!!GOD!!!! MADE US.
I do not believe that choosing to walk thoroughly submitted unto God and flowing in His Spirit means that we have our personalities removed, obliterated, blocked out, overwhelmed out; lain aside etc.
I do not believe that 100% submitting our wills to God's will; 100% choosing God's ways, will, choices etc. will result in our personalities being obliterated, lain aside.
I also believe that the best and truly only person we can chose to be wholesale effectively LIKE is the ONE PERSONALITY, INDIVIDUAL GOD MADE US TO BE. We may mimic John, Paul etc. in some respects but never fully.
I believe that Christ can fully express Himself through us as us and that AS HE DOES SO; WHEN HE DOES SO--HE ALSO CAUSES OUR PERSONALITIES TO GROW IN HIM AND BE MORE FULLY FUNCTIONING AS OUR PERSONALITY WAS DESIGNED BY FATHER TO BE AND TO FUNCTION.
imho, of course.
Beautiful. Thanks for saying so.
LOL.
ROTFLOL.
Do you HONESTLY consider JW's and LDS
MAINSTREAM
Protestant denominations???
What a curious dictionary you have, if so.
God made a jewel which shone with His light.
Satan shattered it, never realizing that when God was done, there would just be more jewels corruscating and gleaming and dazzling with God's light.
When God made you, He did a good thing. When he redeemed you, was that good thing obliterated? I don't think so.
Dawg parable: In the Freer collection in DC there is a tea bowl of raku type appearance. But it was dropped and broken into about 5 pieces. The tea master repaired it with clear lacquer into which he mixed gold dust. The old unbroken tea bowl was nice enough. The repaired bowl takes your breath away, and yet you know what the old bowl looked like. The repaired bowl is not generic bowl. It is entirely itself, and glorious!
WONDERFUL IMAGES, TRUTHS, REALITIES, METAPHORS
THE REAL AUTHENTIC . . . TRUTH.
THE REAL "THING."
Thanks TONS.
LUB
I also believe that the best and truly only person we can chose to be wholesale effectively LIKE is the ONE PERSONALITY, INDIVIDUAL GOD MADE US TO BE. We may mimic John, Paul etc. in some respects but never fully.
. . .
I also have observed and experienced . . .
That OCCASIONALLY, while God may encourage us . . . like Paul to follow him AS HE FOLLOWED CHRIST . . . for a season of growth; overcoming a particular problem; learning a particular discipline; . . .
THAT ON THE WHOLE, AT SOME POINT, God will throw a very thorough and effective monkey wrench in the midst of:
1. anyone trying to conform some one else to person "A's" image.
2. anyone trying to conform themselves to anyone's image other than that of Jesus The Christ.
I've observed (and experienced) some of God's harshest rebukes in such matters.
The point of my list was to demonstrate that at least 2 Protestant denominations differ significantly in doctrine, thus demolishing the concept (if anyone ever even suggests it, which I'm not sure anyone does anymore) of a "doctrinally unified invisible church".
So, I'll say to you: Pick and choose (and call) any of the list "cults" that you want, but I'm certain that at least SOME from the list everyone can agree are Protestant denominations.
If anyone says that not any but one of the denominations listed are not Protestant and/or mainstream, then one has automatically set one denomination above another, and thus, chosen that one denomination is superior to another. This also disproves the notion of an "invisible church".
If one says that the "invisible church" is not unified doctrinally, then, as I said previously, I cannot accept that concept, since to me, the church, whether visible or invisible, should at LEAST be doctrinally united. I cannot accept anything less, since it's Scripture itself that prevents me from doing so, when we read, "Not everyone who calls me 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the Kingdom". This clearly implies there will be doctrinal differences among people (not the church) and thus, the church, whether invisible or visible must be at LEAST doctrinally unified.
God loves the you you are, not the you you aren't. About the only limitation I can confidently say there is in God's love is that He doesn't love what isn't.Early in my (official, collar-wearing) ministry I wanted more than anything to be a window. As time went by, I saw that at least in preaching I would have to settle for being an Icon. An Icon is very much there, but the faithful can see through it, and they see THROUGH it by looking AT it. A window you just look through.
We wouldn't say that Jesus had no personality, would we? It seems to me with the broad humor (Hey, YOU! You got a log in your eye!) and penetrating exchanges with people, you get the sense there was somebody there.
No disrespect to tenors, but this is why Bach was right to have Jesus sung by a Bass in The Matthew Passion.
The
INVISIBLE CHURCH
of all believers who believe Jesus The Christ came in the flesh; was born of a virgin; died for our sins; rose again; is coming again . . . the basics
is AT LEAST
AS
UNIFIED
in doctrine . . . .
as the many factions within the RC church are.
That's Just a fact.
Love it. Thanks.
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