Posted on 03/04/2007 8:21:23 AM PST by Iscool
"We all worship God here, so I don't think that's up for
debate."
Yes, we all worship God and that is my point. Would the foundation of the church not be on the one we are to worship?
"We Catholics do not worship Mary."
I didn't say that you worshipped Mary but I have seen people pray and kneel to her. Perhaps we have a different name for it.
"Christ left Peter (and his successors as his human
shepherd."
Yes He did, as well as the other apostles. He also left His Word.
Second, I think it is possible that nearly as many Protestants have read the Catechism as have Catholics. Very close to none!
In a previous post you claimed that you were a member of the Church of God. The Churches of God that I am familiar with came out of the Restoration Movement, along with a bunch of others also including Christian Science.
Now you belong to a New Testament Church. According to NewTestamentChurch.com (unless you happen to change allegiances again before your next post), they start new churches and give instructions on how to do so. According to any of the Bibles I have read, this is what we engineers call a really bad thing. For those who follow the Lord Jesus Christ, being a member of His Church oughta be enough.
Furthermore, it says that there is no distinction between clergy and laity. So, in other words anyone with charisma and a lust for leadership can lead a church (shades of Ted Haggard). It also says that the New Testament era churches were led by elders and not by Pastors. True enough, except for the fact that church authorities (Peter, Paul, Timothy, etc.) came and imposed their own authority upon them. They were not autonomous. Church officials told them what to do and what not to do. And so on.
I have seen various new fads and new names and new approaches over my years and the Church has seen them throughout the last 2000 years. At what point do people just discard their hubris and their pride and their love of power and go back to what the Lord Jesus Christ left for us to follow? When do we leave the Jim Bakkers and the Jimmy Swaggarts behind?
All I know is that I was shocked when I found out the Truth, and that I had been lied to for all those years. I think the most deceptive thing I found was Protestants taking a Catholic doctrine and saying, "Oh, we don't believe that because it isn't in the Bible," only to learn later that the part of Scripture referencing that belief had been quite conveniently taken out of the Bible. As an example is the doctrine of praying for the dead which is referenced in Maccabees, conveniently discarded from the Protestant Bible.
Another example is the fact that James, in his letter, says several times that faith without works is dead. ("So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." James 2:17; "You see that man is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24; "For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." James 2:26) No wonder Luther tried to get the book of James taken out of the Bible. It directly contradicts the Protestant belief of justification by faith alone (which is not Scriptural)!
These are just two of the many examples I could give. Many Protestants insist beliefs must be Biblically-based to be true, but when confronted with Scripture verses which directly contradict their beliefs, refuse to conform their thinking to what Scripture actually says. I just find Protestant theology to be totally disingenuous.
Probably a lot further away from zero than you might expect. I keep a copy on my Palm (except during those episodes where I swear that after this time getting fixed that I'll never buy another one again) and, along with the Virtual Rosary and the Douay Rheims version of the Bible, find that my portable scriptural and spiritual texts needs are met quite well.
Those that know Him, love Him and love others because they love Him. We do it for LOVE for our Lord not out of duty - [dead works]. Even those who helped "the least of these" asked when He was sick...etc, they were just doing because they belong to Him and love Him not out of a sense of earning salvation.
In the scriptures below Jesus says "I never knew you". They were never saved. It is not what they did or did not do that saved them, they were already saved or not saved.
Mat 7:20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits. Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
No works >>>>>
John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
If you are trying to earn your way to heaven you will miss it. Enter into relationship with Christ by faith in His finished work for you. He was punished in your place. If you will rest your faith in that alone you will not have to pay the punishment yourself. If not, you will have to pay the punishment for your sins. The decision is yours and it is here you have to make it not after this life here.
John 20: 1-8:
1: Now on the first day of the week Mary Mag'dalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.
2: So she ran, and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him."
3: Peter then came out with the other disciple, and they went toward the tomb.
4: They both ran, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first;
5: and stooping to look in, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in.
6: Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; he saw the linen cloths lying,
7: and the napkin, which had been on his head, not lying with the linen cloths but rolled up in a place by itself.
8: Then the other disciple, who reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed;
Well, well, Reggie. John reaches the tomb first but waits until Peter enters. Guess he was winded right? I doubt it! He wrote the "theological Gospel." He had years to ponder all of Christ's actions and He begins His Gospel on a discourse on the Trinity!
John, the beloved disciple, deferred to the one with authority given to him by Jesus Himself--Cephas or Peter.
I've read the Catechism and I have a copy of it, so I will be glad to debate it with you after you have read it.
I still stand by my statement that Protestant theology is disingenuous and I will be glad to point out the many ways it is (just not today as I am on an old computer and it is likely to go down at any minute).
That is at the end of the tribulation. Your good works don't save you. Your good works come after salvation. No one is going to stand in front of The God of creation himself and be able to say one thing he did to obtain eternal life.
Ok. Show us that Judaic law.
Purgatory is not well understood. It is a process, not a place. Heaven cannot be attained by those with the stain of sin. It is the process of removing that stain. The Bible doesn't say where, or how (except for references to purging sins by fire), or how long.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html gives 32 Bible verses that tell about purgatory and gives extensive illustration of what the early Church fathers believed.
I agree completely, very well said!
Kneeling shows respect. Praying can be requests. The word prayer used to mean 'ask/request'. I pray thee...., etc.
I was unaware that you were so gifted as to look into my heart and see what I was thinking and meaning when I do what I do.
He also left His Word.
I would agree, but I'm not sure if you and I are meaning the precisely same thing. Could you explain your interpretation of your statement? (Since Jesus is the Word of God, I think we may have some differences in what your statement means/what you are trying to get across).
I'm at my office and don't have it in front of me; however, I presume that you fully agree with my other six points.
In defense of Protestants who may act in this manner, I think that Catholics tend towards a more contextual and holistic approach, whereas Protestants tend to focus on phrases that have been taught to them first.
What I find most frustrating is that some saying that they aren't interpreting Scripture, but just reading what is said. Interpretation is inherent in reading. We learned that in what, 2nd grade?
This is true. Of course, we Catholics are saved by grace/faith. We do put stock in the story of the talents, however. Since it's in the Scripture, don't you think it means something?
Salvation - you can't earn it, but you can lose it.
Ringer! Why Reggie, Jesus was Resurrected at this point. Simon, son of John, is receiving his marching orders from Christ Himself! He is being told what his mission is. He has learned his lesson well. The Church declares this as Peter receiving his commission: "The primacy was given to Peter directly and immediately. So the Church has always understood--and so Vatican I defined: 'We therefore teach and declare that according to the testimony of the Gospel, the primacy of jurisdiction over the universal Church of God was immediately and directly promised and given to Blessed Peter the Apostle by Christ Our Lord. [...] And it was Simon Peter alone that Jesus after His Resurrection bestowed the jurisdiction of chief pastor and ruler over all his fold in the words "Feed my lambs; feed my sheep.' (see Pastor aeternus, Chap. 1; Lumen Gentium, 18)
Read John carefully. Jesus has much to say to the Apostles at the Last Supper but He tells Peter that his job is to keep his brother's united. Christ is telling him he will be sifted like wheat and that it is Peter's job to continue the unicity of the Church.
That is what is so sad about the proliferation of more and more "confessions" as the Authority given to Peter is ignored and everyone can now go in search of his own truth in a Bible which they interpret personally.
In the Ten Commandments, we are told to "honor thy father and mother." If the Blessed Virgin Mary had children other than our Lord, His taking her away from them would have made it impossible for them to keep this commandment.
There are other reasons, but this is the simplest one and as I said, I am at my office.
Hi, kid! Lot's of fur flying!
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