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To: Nihil Obstat
I had no idea the Franciscans were that far Left. Since they have control over Catholic holy sites in 'Eretz Yisra'el, that's not a good thing.

Now the J*suits I'm familiar with! They somehow went from being the most militant and rightwing order (so militant they were suppressed for a while) to being "secretly behind Communism."

27 posted on 03/01/2007 5:15:03 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Zakhor 'et 'asher-`asah lekha `Amaleq, baderekh betze'tekhem miMitzrayim.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
I had no idea the Franciscans were that far Left.

To say "the Franciscans" as though they were a monolithic group isn't really accurate. More so than any other Founders that I can think of, Sts. Francis and Clare spawned a multiplicity of more or less independent orders. Some have more nuts, fruits and flakes than the entire State of California, whilst others are quite sane and orthodox. I'm not sure the tendencies of the Franciscan community in charge of the Holy Land places, but trying to extrapolate either from the nutters that were once in charge at Assisi OR from a group like the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal in New York isn't going to be very useful.

The Jesuits, as you note, are a different matter ... even so there are still a few sane men in that order.

31 posted on 03/01/2007 6:00:24 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

The Franciscans really went nutz after VatII. Structurally, "Franciscan" is a very loose designation (that is, there are many orders in the "Franciscan family") and there are some good ones, and most of the bad ones are withering up and dying off.

Incidentally, I visited the church of Santa Maria Maggiore in Rome, where there is a reliquary containing things such as fragments of the Crib, etc. These were relics that were kept in the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem until the Muslims took over the Holy Land in 640 A.D. (the fall of Caesarea). This was just after Islam was founded, which shows how aggressive and hostile to Christianity it was from the very beginning.

The relics were brought to Rome for safekeeping. Then, after the brief period when the Crusaders managed to drive the Muslims out, when Acre fell in 1291 and the Muslims took over the area again, more relics were concentrated in Rome because Christians were excluded from the Christian holy sites by the Muslim invaders. A pilgrim who made the trip to the relics in Rome would be considered to have made a pilgrimage to Bethlehem, since visiting the actual place itself was no longer possible.

So you can see how long problems with the holy sites have been going on (since the inception of Islam, essentially).


37 posted on 03/01/2007 6:19:03 AM PST by livius
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To: Zionist Conspirator

I was on pilgrimage in Ha Eretz last May and saw the Franciscans at several of the holy sites. They seemed to be very orthodox there. At the Church of the Holy Sepulchre they not only have Masses (carefully following the horarium set out in the 1850's by an accord with the Greeks, Armenians and maybe others) there every day but also do some special prayers at the most significant spots within the church, i.e. at Calvary, the stone of unction, and the tomb; these are done vested in habit and surplice, with incense, and in Latin. I was very edified. I wish I could get the texts of the prayers they used but cannot find the right source.

The Franciscans also have the only organ in the church, which can be heard throughout when played, even if at the times the other groups are conducting their services. Quite a sight to see the Armenians, in full monk outfit, beards, hood and all, making prayers, chanting, incensing, etc., and then to hear the Franciscans' organ on top of it all. Very exotic.

On a broader note, Israel was great; we felt very safe and the economy is almost completely dual currency, everyone takes and makes change in either dollars or shekels, as desired. In addition to Jerusalem, Haifa was a very beautiful city, with Mount Carmel right there, and worth the trip itself.

For pilgrim accommodations in Jerusalem (i.e. for those not needing TVs in the room, but requiring a chapel on site) I highly recommend the Notre Dame Institute, run by the Legionaries of Christ. Fr. Juan Solana, LC, who is the director, took us around to many of the sites in Jerusalem himself, and he was greeted by the locals there as if he were another mayor of Jerusalem or something. He is really quite something. For those who can understand Spanish, I would recommend a visit to see him give a reflection on the Nativity, at the Grotto of the Nativity in Bethlehem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYi00JltpIw

If you follow the link, you will see the inspiration for my tag.


56 posted on 03/01/2007 9:04:02 AM PST by Theophane (Es Verdad)
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