Replies

The quote you gave of Zech.14:4, as you said, happens at the 7th trump when He returns. Please go to:

Zech.13:8-9
8.And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
(that is die a spiritual death because they follow anti-christ)
9.And I will bring the third part through the fire,and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on My name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is My People: and they shall say" the LORD is my God.'
(we will go through tough times, we will be refined)

"Paul is just giving the order of of the calling of the church when the Lord returns first. The Lord does not come down to earth at this time but His church meets Him in the clouds"

I don't agree. I think we are to remain and He doesn't come until the 7th trump. Those of us that are alive and REMAIN = those that have gone through satan's tribulation and are alive because they have not suffered a spiritual death and remain, to wait for the true Christ, at the 7th trump.

Air, as in "meet you in the air" is #109 : to breathe unconsciously..... To me that is the breath of life, spirit, not atmosphere.

"Without the rapture there is no scripture to describe how the church got to be with Him in heaven in order to return with Him."

The word church isn't mentioned when He returns so you must mean those that return with Him. Those are all the elect who have died and they return with Him, at the 7th trump.

"otherwise you get the Holy Spirit being taken away and leaving the church to its own devices and no where in scripture is the church left defenseless."

We aren't left defenseless - We have His truth, His Word and as shown in Luke 10:
18.And He said unto them, "I beheld Satan as lightning
fall from heaven.
(he doesn't fall until the 6th trump so He is speaking of Satan's time, his hour of temptation)

19.Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and
scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and
nothing shall by any means hurt you.

" so the church won't be subject to the wrath/judgment of God during the tribulation period (seals, trumpets, vials) when the Holy Spirit is no longer extant but working as in the Old Testament with Israel."

His wrath is not for those that love Him. As Shadrach, Meshack and Abednego came through the fire, as Noah came through the flood we too will go through Satan's tribulation but will be unharmed as long as we are not fooled into worshipping the false christ.

The Tribulation Period is not Satan's but God's wrath being poured out on the earth. The seals, trumpets and vials are God's doing and for a reason; to demonstrate to the world God's judgment and righteousness and the result is they would not repent (Rev. 9:20, 21, Rev. 16:9,11) even in the face of His sovereign power and the powerlessness of Satan and his anti-christ and prophet to stem the wrath. Believers going through the Tribulation Period are the remnant of Israel who become believers during the period and those who become become believers because of the witness of the believing remnant. That's where the martyrs and beheaded come from mentioned in Revelation.

"The quote you gave of Zech.14:4, as you said, happens at the 7th trump when He returns" No, what I said was, "gives the picture of the Lord's return described in Rev. 19 and 20, at the end of the tribulation period and the beginning of the millennium". This would happen after Rev. 16:17, "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done." There is no more mercy or grace to be given to the unbeliever; for them it is judgment and the fearful coming of the King of King and Lord of Lords with His hosts. That happens after the last vial of His wrath is poured out.

Now, the trumpet judgments and the vial judgments all take place during the period of the last seal judgment, but they are distinct and increasing in intensity and accelerating in quickness of the wrath of God.

The marriage entourage comes to gather the Bride and her 'court', then the entire entourage returns to the marriage feast location. The return of Christ where He touches down on Earth is well after the marriage feast and is the final pouring out of wrath to cleanse the Earth for His kingdom. The King and his Bride reign in that day. I THESS 4 is about the coming for the Bride, other passages address the return to set foot upon the mountain. ... And this back and forth which grows to look like haranguing is why I don't get into pre-post trib debates, so I shall refrain from further posts in an exchange. Thank you.