Posted on 02/26/2007 9:52:40 AM PST by Alex Murphy
MEDIA ADVISORY, Feb. 22 /Christian Newswire/ -- The sequel to a book written by a former Los Angeles-based radio and television talk show host, which challenges the doctrine of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture to Heaven, is now available to the public. Published by Author House, Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation is the sequel to The End Times Passover, written by Joe Ortiz.
"No Christian wants to imagine he or she will be persecuted, but it will happen" stated Ortiz, who spent over 20 years researching and writing his books. Ortiz stated he provides unequivocal Bible evidence that challenges the belief system that Christians will escape to Heaven while unbelievers will be Left Behind to experience Armageddon. "Unfortunately, a large majority of evangelicals do not believe they will go through any tribulation, believing instead that God will provide them an escape through what they call the Rapture."
Ortiz said he realizes his is a minority point of view and that most Christians believe in the books written by authors who promote the Left Behind doctrine (such as John Hagee, Tim LaHaye, Hal Lindsey, et al); but he's willing to debate those authors who promote a Premillennial, Dispensational doctrine to determine what is myth or what is true fact.
Ortiz said he wrote the books because he is concerned for those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation escape to Heaven. He said his books not only provide Bible evidence to support his contentions, and clearly explain why they will be persecuted, but feels it's his duty to reach out to fellow Christians and alert them to be prepared for the eventuality of great tribulation.
The author is a former award-winning radio/television talk show host and newspaper columnist. A 23 year veteran broadcaster, Joe Ortiz has the distinction of being the first Mexican American to conduct a general topics talk show on an English-language commercial radio station. He began his broadcasting career at KABC-AM in Los Angeles in 1971. He is semi-retired but still writes for local and national periodicals and hosts three blogs.
pretrib, prewrath or posttrib...all the Glory to God.
Who are the elect of God?
Good morning John, (In answer to your tag line question, yes that is part of the mark of the beast, to go back and not walk with Him but even more, it is to believe his lies. Especially in end times when many will follow him believing he is Christ.)
Thank you for your question about the elect. It means "chosen one, divine selection."
Ephesians 1:4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: (5)Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself...
The remainder of that chapter continues to describe the elect. Vs.8 & 9 are telling too:
8.Wherein He hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9.Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure when He hath purposed in Himself;
Part of that "mystery of His will" is to recognize the mark of the beast and not be part of it.
The elect are again referred to in Romans 8:26-32
The Spirit helpeth our infirmities. The Sprit maketh intercession. They are called, according to His purpose. He foreknew them and they are predestined, justified and glorified.
The elect that have passed on through the ages are then referred to as the remnant. They carried His true word forward. They return with Christ as part of His army to join those of us who stand with Christ in the end and did not follow the beast.
"pretrib, prewrath or posttrib...all the Glory to God."
In a way it is all to the glory of God. It shows that all worship Father and love Him.
My worry is that many are taking the Left Behind books as gospel itself. The danger is that God warns us of what to expect in end times and what He expects us to do. None of which is to fly away. If a Christian wants to believe they will be raptured but prepare for what Jesus actually tells us what will happen it would be okay - but that can't happen. If one believes in rapture they cannot believe what Jesus tells us in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.
There is great danger in the rapture doctrine. It was not given to Christianity for an innocent purpose.
Over the last several years I've been showing how the pretrib rapture doctrine is unscriptural on a couple of different Christian boards. Some have come to understand it, others accuse me of heresy and even demonic possession. It's amazing how tightly some hold onto the pretrib view even after seeing it disproved scripturally.
"It's amazing how tightly some hold onto the pretrib view
even after seeing it disproved scripturally."
Yes it is. My wonderful sister-in-law, among others in my family, are rapture believers. When I tell her the reasons it should not be believed she just says, "but you need to hear my preacher". The words, "Take heed and follow no man" come to my mind then but she chooses not to hear. As you said in your other post - her ears are being tickled.
7 - Do you think that anyone will repent at the judgment of the Great White Throne? Does judgment ever lead to repentance?(romans 2:4) What if someone in the lake of fire repented?
Ping - I think all will want to repent at the Great White Throne judgment but it is too late. The only time judgment could lead to repentance would be after the first judgment. The one that places each of us on the side of the gulf we deserve. If on the wrong side the teaching that goes on for 1,000 years will bring many to repentance but not all.
When one is in the lake of fire it is over.
7 - My sense is that because unbelievers do not have the capacity to understand spiritual things, therefore the teaching that you speak of is also reserved for believers.
Ping - The teaching is for all that didn't make it in the first resurrection. It is to ready them for the final test that takes place at the end of the millennium when Satan is again released for a short time.
7 - 1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Ping - During the millennium all will know there is God and at the beginning of the millennium "every knee will bow". But, given the nature of some, not all will follow Him.
7 - Christ said “I and my Father are one.” That is not the same thing as if he said “I am my father”
Ping - I agree. Now you get into the Trinity. Some days I think I grasp the concept and others I do not. The idea that I am able to hold on to is that God is in another dimension. In order to see Him we must pass through our physical death and then we can see Him. "He so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son" - He did this so He could be seen, in the flesh form of His Son.
What will stop the people from repenting even if they want to? Surely you don't suggest that God will prevent them from repenting?
Ping - The teaching is for all that didn't make it in the first resurrection.
Who are these people that did not make it in the first resurrection? Is there a second resurrection?
Seven
7 - What will stop the people from repenting even if
they want to? Surely you don't suggest that God
will prevent them from repenting?
Ping - Nothing would stop them from being sorry for not
following God and repenting but it will be too late. God is a forgiving God and wants to bring all to repentance. That is the reason those that didn't make it are not thrown into a lake of fire at the beginning of the millennium.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His
promise, as some men count slackness; but is
longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should
perish, but that all should come to repentance.
That longsuffering will not last forever. Vengeance is His.
7 - Who are these people that did not make it in the first resurrection? Is there a second resurrection?
Ping - Rev.20:4 Are those that made the first resurrection and lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5.But the rest of the dead (spiritually) lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
6.Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
12.And I saw the dead (spiritually), small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
14.And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15.And whosoever was not found writen in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The second resurrection are those that were written in that book of life. After that Great White Throne judgment eternity begins and God lives with us.
.......Ping-Pong
A PS to the previous post.
7 - "Who are these people that did not make it in the
first resurrection? "
Ping - An additional thought on my answer:
Rev.22:15. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."
Dogs means homosexuals and sorcerers means pharmacia or drug users, those that get a spiritual high from drugs.
There are many liars but what do you think it means about those that "loveth" a lie. I assume that means those that listen to lies about God and don't search for the truth on their own. They're content to believe what they are told by men when He warned "Take heed that no man deceive you".
Behold the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?
You would not know it by my tag line but my name is Phill
John - "Is not the elect the Children of Abraham?"
Ping - The 144,000 referred to in Rev.14:1&3 and 7:4 are the tribes of "the children of Israel". Abraham had many children, including Ishmael and his descendants but (Gen.21:12) "through Isaac shall thy seed be called."
So the question is, who are the children of Israel and where are they today. We can't confuse the Israel here with the nation of Israel today, as it wasn't founded until 1948. There are 12 tribes, one of which is Judah - They are called Jews. Where are the other tribes?
John - "Being chosen by God predestinated to be conformed
to His image is this not like the predestination of Christ?"
Ping - It means the elect are already justified and predestined - they have a destiny and will fulfill it.
John - "Behold the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?"
Ping - I don't understand your question. Please let me know what you mean.
So the idea that born again believers are only the elect of God is not good hermeneutics.
If all things are created in Christ and through Christ the all men were in Christ before the foundation of the world so all men were and are predestined for the opportunity of the new birth.
I am not say that all men will be saved but all men have the invitation to be saved.
Otherwise you have a God that is not the God of the Old and New Covenants.
John - "So the idea that born again believers are only the elect of God is not good hermeneutics."
Ping - Born again, as used in John 3:3, means to be born from above. Strong's #509. All of us came from the Father, not as the Nephillium, the fallen angels of Jude 1-6.
John - "If all things are created in Christ and through Christ then all men were in Christ before the foundation of the world so all men were and are predestined for the opportunity of the new birth."......I am not saying that all men will be saved but all men have the invitation to be saved"
Ping - Yes, all men have the opportunity to follow Christ. That is what our time here is about, to choose between Christ and Satan. However, not all will.
I agree with you on those points but that doesn't tell us who the elect of God are.
Eph.1:4 They were chosen before the foundation of the world and were predestined- why?
Romans 8:26-32 The Spirit helpeth our infirmities. The Spirit maketh intercession. They are called, according to His purpose. He foreknew them and they are predestined, justified and glorified.
Ps.105:6 "O ye seed of Abraham His servant, Ye children of Jacob His chosen."
Is.41:8 "But thou, Israel, art My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham My friend"
(Those are the 12 tribes.)
Is 44:1....."and Israel, whom I have chosen:"
Is 45:4..."Israel Mine elect"
Matt.20:16..."for many be called, but few chosen" (This is the elect.)
Matt.22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you."
John 15:19..."but I have chosen you out of the world.
1Peter 2:9 "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people, that ye should shew forth the praises of Him Who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light:" (United States of America?)
So, the elect are the few that are chosen (the 7,000), they are of the tribes of Israel, they are predestined. justified and glorified. They are to go and "bring forth fruit" for He is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
When considering this please remember that the tribes of Israel separated from the tribe of Judah. They are not one and the same.
You need to back up your statements with something. Year's back I began to study types in scripture. The details in God's metaphors are more precise than most people realize. I don't know how far we can go as we seek to understand God by looking at his work, but one thing bothered me.
Most people compare the second birth to resurrection rather than to the first birth; that is, they assume that we are already spiritually dead before we are born again. If we look at birth, death and resurrection as metaphors, which they are, then birth is a picture of spiritual birth, death would be a symbol for spiritual death and so on.
My purpose here is not to argue these points, but rather to see where they will take us. We may contrast and compare, always keeping in the back of our mind that God has designed all of His metaphors and that they are perfect.
You would not say that a person was dead before he was born,. And resurrection requires that you first must die. The order is important. You cannot be dead before you are born and you cannot be resurrected before you die. I will argue that the first and second death and resurrection, like birth, apply to individuals and are not necessarily specific events.
If you accept this argument, you may find that there are contradictions to some established doctrine, but this is the same method that men used to come up with the rapture doctrine, and with Dispensationalism. I have been influenced by the work of J. N. Darby, so I turn to others who disagree with him for criticism.
Here's my take. The first death is the natural death, and the second death is the spiritual death. It is appointed to men once to die. The second death is optional. Christ is the first resurrection. Sure there are other resurrections, but they lacked two features, incorruption and immortality. Note the language in Revelation 20; we have part in the first resurrection. I believe that this includes all Christians, no matter when the resurrections take place. Since we will not be “hurt of the second death,” it follows that we will not need the second resurrection. Those who are cast into the lake of fire (second death) will not be offered the second resurrection.
So then, what is the second resurrection? Some say that it is the resurrection of damnation noted in John 5 and Revelation 20. This resurrection also lacks incorruption and immortality and it may be to late to be the second resurrection. Is it perhaps the third?
Think about what Christ said on the cross; "into thy hands I commend my spirit" and then he dismissed the spirit. "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." What happened to Christ during the three days after the cross? His body was body was treated like the body of a rich man, but what of his spirit? Was it the second death? Was the cross a metaphor? When he took on the wrath of God for the sins of men, was it so terrible that he refused to write about it? This would explain his fear the night before the crucifixion. It also may give meaning to his words on that first Easter morning; "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father."
Seven - "You need to back up your statements with something"
Ping - In answer to your question about the 2 resurrections I thought that I had. Rev. 20:4-15 tell of the 2 resurrections.
You are really doing some deep, deep thinking with this and I'm afraid I don't understand. It seems clear to me what the resurrections are.
When He returns all are changed into a spiritual body. All are judged as to what side of the gulf they are to go. Those that followed Christ are part of the first resurrection and will not be tested again. All others will be taught during the millennium and at it's end will be tested again. Then we have the great white throne judgment and the lake of fire.
I understand you follow Darby and the rapture doctrine but I do not. My belief is there is nothing scriptural that supports it at all. I truly believe that we are warned against it. One of the places is Ezekiel 13:20;
"Wherefore thus saith the Lord God 'Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly."
Seven - "What happened to Christ during the three days after the cross?"
Ping - It was written about in 1 Peter 3:19 -
"By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison"
20."Which sometimes were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing..."
Christ went back to offer salvation to those who had died before His first advent.
Seven - "This would explain his fear the night before the crucifixion"
Ping - Seven, I don't believe there was fear. Jesus came to earth to be crucified so when He said "take the cup from Me", He didn't mean to stop the plan. The cup is the cup of God's wrath that will be poured out at His 2nd. advent.
He was asking if there could be another way.
Mk.14:35....and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from Him
36.And He said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible unto Thee; take away this cup from Me: nevertheless not what I will but what Thou wilt."
Strong's #5335 - A vial is a "broad, shallow cup".
Rev. 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, Who liveth for ever and ever.
Often, after re-reading your posts, I see another thought of yours coming through. I should take more time. I'm sure this will happen again, especially with this one. (I may have to add another PS:)
.......Ping-Pong
Thanks for the ping!
Rev 5:9-10 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (KJV)
It appears that from every kindred, tongue, people, and nation God will make kings and priest.
The word used for kindred is translated tribe, which I would presume could and would be a different tribe than Israel since it says from every kindred or tribe.
John - There are only 7,000 that are the elect of God? And it is only of the Tribe of Israel?
Ping - There are the elect and then the very elect.
Rom.11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have reserved to Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."
This is the very elect, the 7,000 that make a stand in end times and "never bow a knee". Notice in vs.2 that God foreknew them. He chose them. Go to vs. 7, which states:
"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."
God placed a spirit of slumber on others. This is for their protection. The #7, in Biblical numerics, means spiritual completeness (as in 7 days of the week), so this 7,000 is however many God selects as His perfect number.
Then you have the elect. Those are the 144,000. One of the references to them is:
Rev. 14:1 And I looked and lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads.
(Vs. 3 states that they were redeemed from the earth.)
Rev.7:3 Saying, "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads,"
4.And I heard the number of them which were sealed; and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
The 144,000 fall for Satan's lies in the end of days but before it is too late, before Christ returns at the 7th trump, the seeds of truth that the 7,000 have planted take root and they are sealed.
John - It appears that from every kindred, tongue, people, and nation God will make kings and priest......I would presume could and would be a different tribe than Israel since it says from every kindred or tribe.
Ping - Yes, whosoever will believe.
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