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To: CarrotAndStick; HarleyD; Gamecock; 1000 silverlings; Quix; xzins; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; ...
Why is it that most Protestant-majority countries are far well-off than most Catholic-majority ones? Is this an ignorant observation, or does it have something to do with that Protestant work ethic that was supposedly famous in that community, years ago?

Amen. And precisely so.

The Reformation was a return to Trinitarian Christianity with Scripture and the leading of the Holy Spirit as preeminent paths to understanding that we are saved by Christ's atonement alone. We work to glorify God; not to appease Him. Christ already accomplished that by being the only propitiation for our sins.

To posture that Islam has anything to do with Christianity of any ilk is preposterous. But if you had to align Islam with one, it would certainly be the church of Rome which insists there are some on earth more deserving of God's grace than others.

15 posted on 02/17/2007 12:59:38 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
To posture that Islam has anything to do with Christianity of any ilk is preposterous. But if you had to align Islam with one, it would certainly be the church of Rome which insists there are some on earth more deserving of God's grace than others
This is not the only similarity between Rome and Islam. The idea of rituals that HAVE TO be performed in order to gain God's favor is something that Islam got from the prevalent religion of its day. It would not have gotten that idea from Protestantism. The idea that one doesn't know for sure until after one dies whether or not one has found favor with God is an idea that Islam got from the prevailing religion at the time of its birth, not something that they would have gotten from Protestantism. In fact, the idea that Islam was keeping an eye on what all of those bishops were doing, at least at a surface level, is attested to in the fact that they have astutely observed in their Quran the deification of Mary by the Roman Catholic church: "And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. "[Qur'an 5:116]

Gee, if your religion is so unclear to the casual observer as to who it thinks God is, shouldn't that indicate that there is a problem? Certainly something that SHOULD give one pause for consideration.
17 posted on 02/17/2007 1:25:58 PM PST by Blogger
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Enosh; Titanites; Kolokotronis

If you want to discuss "Religion and the Rise of Capitalism," maybe we could start a separate thread on that...

But as far as this thread goes, I think the author does make some interesting points. First of all, let me say that I don't think Protestantism is directly descended from Islam. For one thing, what is "Protestantism"? There are so many varieties of it that the term is almost meaningless. Nowadays, it means simply neither Orthodox nor Catholic. So perhaps the best thing to do for this discussion is to limit it specifically to Luther and his immediate followers and disregard the variants that appeared later.

That said, I don't think Luther was directly inspired by Islam, although there certainly would have been some discussion of it in the universities of his day. Many of the things that Luther believed or defended, either initially or eventually, such as polygamy, were typical features of other, earlier movements and did not come from Islam. The only thing I do wonder about is the "Sola Scriptura" current. That strikes me as something that might reflect a direct influence of Islam and its approach to its texts. Or did it come from somewhere else? I don't recall it's having been part of any other earlier movement in Christianity.


21 posted on 02/17/2007 2:08:52 PM PST by livius
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Amen. And precisely so. The Reformation was a return to Trinitarian Christianity with Scripture and the leading of the Holy Spirit as preeminent paths to understanding that we are saved by Christ's atonement alone.

And this is about making a great fortune, how exactly?

We work to glorify God; not to appease Him. I would say that most Protestants and Catholics alike work to make a fortune for themselves, not to serve God.
106 posted on 02/18/2007 5:48:07 AM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Reformation leaders, such as Luther and Calvin, did seek a return to the Chistianity of the early Church Fathers, but more radical reformers cared little about patristic writing. Evangelicals are only now rediscovering them. But I have never met a Baptist layman who has any knowledge about the Christological controveries of the 4th and 5th Centuries. Repudiating the historical creeds as authoritative has led to the repudiation of the Confessions, which are rational disagreementsd with Catholic doctrine. To reduce Christianity to the simple statement that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savor is to ignore two thousand years of reflection on the the question Our Lord asked: Who do you say that I am? There have been a thousand different opinions? Who is right?


119 posted on 02/18/2007 8:44:40 AM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

"The Reformation was a return to Trinitarian Chistianity with Scripture and the leading of the Holy Spirit as preeminent paths to understand that we are saved by Christ's atonement alone."

This must be why so much of mainline Protestantism no longer believes what is found in the Scriptures, indeed, rejects much of it. That is why it has accepted things such as divorce and homosexuality, which are condemned in the Scriptures. Protestants are straying further and further from the Scriptural basis of their faith. But this was bound to happen since they separated themselves from Rome.


135 posted on 02/19/2007 5:18:21 AM PST by steadfastconservative
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

This is an absolutely ridiculous thread. I see all the usuals are climbing on aboard the hate protestants train. Arrgghhhhh!!!! I wish they'd recognize their OWN heresies but they don't see that.


136 posted on 02/19/2007 6:59:24 AM PST by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
propitiation

gold star for the dr. - excellent word use

from the article: However, it very soon developed into something far more radical, jettisoning basic Christian teachings, bringing in doctrines entirely new to Christianity

shall we run through the list my reformed friend ?

Mariology

Purgatory

Indulgences

Veneration of Saints

Papacy

Latin Vulgate

transsubstantiation

repetitive prayer

.........ooops - those arent ours

156 posted on 02/19/2007 10:17:00 AM PST by Revelation 911
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