Posted on 02/01/2007 5:23:18 PM PST by NYer
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"Christ did not recognize seven churches. He recognized seven congregations of the same church. His church, the ONE that He established."
Yes, of course, but as +Ignatius of Antioch taught us, the fullness of The Church is found in a single diocese, or at that time congregation, made up of the bishop surrounded by his clergy and the people of God focused on the Eucharist. The Church, NYer, the whole One Church, is in many places. On another level, and as +BXVI points out, The Church is made up of many "particular churches", yours is one, mine is one, etc.
E's comment as far as it goes, is right on the money.
"But this can only happen if there is one Church with one body of faith.
We have that One Faith. It is called Christianity.
John 3:16"
Indeed we do, but when it comes to what is The Church, where is The Church found, there's more to it, at least insofar as Orthodoxy and the Latin Church are concerned. There is in my mind no doubt, as there is apparently no doubt in the mind of +BXVI himslef, that Protestant "ecclesial assemblies" and Protestants are connected to The Church in some way including holding certain fundamental beliefs in common. But those ecclesial assemblies are not properly "churches" in our ecclesiology which is formed by our theology. That ecclesial definition of where one finds The Church is best stated by +Ignatius of Antioch.
The effect of this is not fully known to Orthodoxy as a general proposition. We know that theosis is found in The Church. We cannot say, because we don't know, what happens outside The Church except to say that no man comes to The Father save through Christ and we can't limit His ways and methods. It may well be that there is no theosis outside The Church. certainly there is a large minority in Orthodoxy and I believe a large majority in the Latin Church which believe that...but we Orthodox really, at base, don't know. In part that's what +Symeon the new Theologian is saying in the snip I posted earlier.
They were not different "churches" in the sense of a separate Church, but a separate parish or diocese. They were all part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church, and they all answered to the same authority.
St. Paul also wrote to seven churches. Ephesus is the only one included in both lists . . .
These have been great. Thank you for educating more people!
**The "seven churches" in the Book of Revelation are Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea. They are right there in Chs. 2 and 3.**
All part of the Catholic Church in Asia Minor. Epesus was the main church center.
I'm in the process of a Bible study course on Revelation.
Revelation really is pointed to the Church at that time, written in coded words about the Roman Empire. The people of that time would have understood the coded symbolisms.
Of course, there is a deeper thread to all that is written as is might apply to us today. and it's amazing how much does!
The Early Church Fathers on The Church (Catholic Caucus)
Early Church Fathers on (Oral) Tradition - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Apostolic Succession - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Purgatory - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Salvation Outside the Church [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
"If there are no objections, I will then leave this as an open caucus." ?"
So is the thread open to heretics or not?
:)
Unless I am mistaken, it literally means "down + whole", and yet it is translated to mean "universal". Has this word changed over time in such a way as to have obscured its original meaning?
Could the Greek word "catholic" have originally meant "the whole faith handed down" or "the whole faith written down", reflecting what Jude says: "a faith once delivered to the saints", not handed out a little at a time, but the whole thing down on papyrus right there in front of them.
Thus it is not until the final book of the NT scriptures [John's Book of Revelation] has been passed down to the church that Ignatius coins the word "catholic" as regards the church. Before this the church did not have the whole apostolic testament, but Ignatius now recognizes that the church now has the "whole" testament of the faith handed "down" to it.
For the most part, every Christian agrees that outside the Church there is slim chance of salvation. What we don't agree on is exactly what the term "Church" means.
I don't think so. It would seem to me that if it meant that it would have been spelled "κατολικη" as opposed to "καθολικη" with "κατ'" meaning "down" in the way you are looking at it. Certainly, though we today look at the canon of the NT as closing with Revelations, that wasn't at all true in the time of +Ignatius.
Lies are not welcome here.
How can you call this a caucus when the topic is an attack on all professing Christians who chose not to be a member of your particular religion???
Caucuses however cannot be used as "cover" to take shots at other confessions. So if you see something in the article or in the reply posts which is directed to your confession and is either incorrect, incomplete or a strawman - let me know. Otherwise keep your peace.
If the offensive material is in the article, the thread may be opened, if it is in a reply post - the post may be removed to keep the caucus.
ok
Paul didn't hope the way you think of hope...
G1680
ἐλπίς
elpis
el-pece'
Fromἔλπω elpō which is a primary word (to anticipate, usually with pleasure); expectation (abstract or concrete) or confidence: - faith, hope.
Hope is assurance...All those verses you listed about hope were mis-interpreted...
God has never blessed arrogance, even if sincerely believed with some evidence.
I've heard compelling theories that the 144,000 mentioned in Rev. 7, the "144,000 Sealed", are Jews who make it into heaven the "old fashioned way." That is to say, they worship the Father alone with no regard to the Trinity.
Said theory goes on to say that we Christians represent "The Great Multitude in White Robes", also of Rev. 7.
However, that same 144,000 is mentioned again in Rev. 14 and Rev.14:4 says that "They follow the Lamb wherever he goes."
The Lamb is obviously Jesus, which is what makes me skeptical of this concept.
The usual counter to that is "Tribulation Saints" and such.
Well, it can make for an interesting discussion.
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