Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: Uncle Chip
According to II Timothy 3:14-17, what else besides "Scripture" did Paul say was beneficial or profitable for doctrine, correction, exhortation and instruction ...? What else? Anything else?
1 Timothy 3:15

if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Finally, Paul upheld the value of Sacred Tradition.
2 Thessalonians 2:15

So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

And according to Jesus,
Matthew 18:17

If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Synthesizing these verses, we see that the Church, Sacred Tradition and Scripture are the three pillars of faith. As a historical matter, the Church preceded the Scriptures in time, and so gave birth to the Scriptures, writing, canonizing and preserving them.

Luther's incoherent doctrine of "the Bible alone" didn't appear until 1500 years after Christ's death and resurection.

289 posted on 01/25/2007 11:05:14 AM PST by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 268 | View Replies ]


To: Aquinasfan
the Church preceded the Scriptures in time

Not so. The OT Scriptures prophesied of a Messiah who the Gentiles would embrace and that He would take out of them a people for His Name. And the apostles taught out of those OT scriptures from Pentecost onward. The scriptures thus preceded the Church.

298 posted on 01/25/2007 11:20:27 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 289 | View Replies ]

To: Aquinasfan
1 Timothy 3:15

if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

"God's household" refers to the community of believers, which is the Church. Further "the pillar and foundation of the truth" refers to "the living God".

2 Thessalonians 2:15

So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

The operative word is "we", as in Paul and the other Apostles. It does not follow that "we" includes the self-appointed RCC. It is God's providential goodness that led to God-fearing men to preserve the writings of the New Testament.

Matthew 18:17

If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

The word "church" is used in the connotation of "local assembly", not in the universal sense, as in "Church of Christ". Other than that, I don't see how this supports your contention.

Your contention that these verses support the RCC triple play of Authority is simply misguided.

The idea that the RCC precedes Scripture in time is laughable. The Church of Christ established at that very special Pentecost certainly precedes New Testament Scriptures, and those same Scriptures document the activities and teachings of the Church that God would have us know and apply in our lives.

Finally, the idea of relying on God's written Word exclusively pre-dates the Church, having its roots in the reliance on the Torah, Writings, and Prophets by the Jews.

303 posted on 01/25/2007 11:27:47 AM PST by pjr12345
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 289 | View Replies ]

To: Aquinasfan
I realize that the word "alone" is not in II Timothy 3:14-17. But it is understood, right?

Did Paul say that his oral teachings, his preachings, tradition, the things that they talked about as they ate dinner last week could be used for Doctrine, ...... No. There is nothing else that Paul said could be used for Doctrine, ....., right? If there is nothing else, then it is Scripture [alone], or Scripture (alone), or sola Scriptura, right?

Paul is not saying that his preachings and oral teachings are not salvific, or the power of God unto salvation. He is saying that when it comes to "Doctrine, ....", Scripture and only Scripture is profitable for that purpose.

305 posted on 01/25/2007 11:31:01 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 289 | View Replies ]

To: Aquinasfan
" Matthew 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector."

If I remember correctly, God was counted amongst the pagan's and tax collectors. This verse can not be used to justify anyone's claim to authority. Any claim to authority to justify some claim, is simply a propaganda technique, not a logical operation.

The correct verse that applies to identify a Church is Matt 18:20, "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." You cut a verse from a passage that was referring to men gathered for the purpose of accusing each other of sin. The passage can not logically apply to groups of men, both claiming to be "the Church", where the matter of contention requires an examination of the evidence and the application of logic.

The parties involved in the contention have 2 options. They can take the course of Mark 6:11 in recognition that all the evidence and logic shows they have been perfect, the matter of faith has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt and go their separate ways. Else they can recognize that the matter is not a matter of faith worth pressing and fractioning the Church over, and act as commanded in John 13:34-35. Mark 6:11,
"And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them."

John 13:34-35,
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

I see no scriptural justification for any man, or group, to claim authority. The commands given in Matt 5:48 and Matt 19:14, apply to the decision of which course to take.

Matt 5:48, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Matt 19:14,
Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

They apply with the following caution. Matt 5:20,
"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

330 posted on 01/25/2007 12:02:40 PM PST by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 289 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson